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  • From: KAKerby AT aol.com
  • To: market-farming AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [Market-farming] manures/GAP training
  • Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 01:41:20 EST

I didn't do any research per se; I was just repeating what they told us in class. I was mainly wondering of other folks who had gone through GAP training had heard the same things.  I must say that it seemed pretty straightforward in class but you all have brought up excellent points.  Many of which cast some doubt not only on the results but also the implications/management solutions. 
 
I still have the contact info for the researchers and I'm debating with myself whether to pose some of these questions to those individuals, just to see what they'd say.  I'm particularly interested in the beneficials issue, since clearly these E coli don't exist in a vacuum.  Ways and means for out-competing other bacteria is something we've seen in other natural systems (such as promoting desirable bacteria in fermented products).  It would seem perhaps a beneficial "recipe" for soils treatment would be the more constructive approach than simply banning materials altogether. 
 
If I did pose those questions, I'd be curious what specific questions you all would want me to ask?
Kathryn Kerby
Frog Chorus Farm
Snohomish, WA
 
In a message dated 3/2/2010 5:04:54 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, gartht AT txcyber.com writes:
Greetings,

My irrigation come directly from my well, no chance of contamination. 
Better not be contaminated, I drink from the same well.  No run off that
can be contaminated.  Our beds are all raised, heaven help anyone who
puts their weight on my beds, I do no till beds.  I grow tomatoes,
melons, cucumbers,  peppers, eggplant and okra, all up in the air on
trellises.  The manure is carried in buckets directly to the beds from
the collection trays, we don't let it get on the ground.  My growing
area is well removed from my livestock areas.  I think that covers all
worries.  Now, if I carry through with my idea for growing greens, I
will have to be very careful, but then I knew I would have to change my
methods for them.

Thank you for the diligent research, it is appreciated.  The new laws
are not.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

KAKerby AT aol.com wrote:
> I glossed over a lot of the detail from that class, because I wanted
> to keep the email short.  But to provide a few more details:
> 1) only mammalian or avian-based manures are a risk.  Earthworm
> castings are not a risk if they are dining on plant wastes.

> 2) There was a theory floating around for awhile that only intensively
> grain-fed ruminants could produce deadly variants of E coli, which
> would have been a nice reason (amongst many) to shut down feedlots. 
> But recent findings amongst wild elk in the Rockies indicates that
> grain-fed versus not-grain-fed doesn't matter.  Any warm-blooded
> creature (mammals or birds) can ingest, create and pass on E coli. 
> Grass-fed cows have also been found to carry deadly variants of E
> coli.  We use rabbits to build our beds here, and like you that seemed
> very reasonable to me until I learned that any mammal can produce
> those deadly strains.

> 3) While using mulch and landscape fabric would be sufficient to
> protect the crops immediately above them, any contact you may have
> with the soil downstream of a contamination source is sufficient to
> cause contamination.  Any source of water-soil interaction (muddy
> spots in the driveway, disturbed soil while putting up fenceposts,
> etc) is sufficient to get it on your clothing and shoes which can then
> spread it around to the rest of your growing area.  It can be spread
> much like a cold can be spread from person to person - any form of
> direct contact.  But irrigation was listed as the #1 way that E coli
> can move around on the farm, and from one farm to another, because the
> water carries it along.  Contaminated irrigation water is the
> suspected source of contamination in several recent E coli
> contamination cases which made the news.

> I'm not a huge fan of these new suggestions either.  I was just
> wondering what changes, if any, other growers might be making with
> these new research findings.  I remember during the last big flood
> here, farmers were told they couldn't market crops touched by the
> floodwaters.  The near-universal comment was "show me the research to
> back up your requirements and then I'll go along with it."  Well, now
> we've got some of those research findings.  Hence my question for what
> folks were going to do about it.
> Kathryn Kerby
> Frog Chorus Farm
> Snohomish, WA


>  
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