Healthy soil and sustainable growing

[Michelle Silva <cosmobaby@verizon.net>]

us too! : )

---

From: "gloria@aquaponicfarm.com" <gloria@aquaponicfarm.com>
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 11:03:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] World Hunger Best Cured by Small-Scale Agriculture

That is why we grow our own fish food

Gloria

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 14, 2011, at 8:41 AM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:

>
> Just a personal thought, it seems to me that plants that evolved with roots in soil shouldn't be growing in water since aerobic microbes that normally feed plants can't survive in water. Haven't taken time to research it much and aquaponics sounds like an efficient, sustainable system, but a snag might be in how the fish are fed. Large scale commercial fish farming has got a bad name http://www.worldwatch.org/node/760 http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/aquafarming.aspx .
>
> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 1/14/2011 at 6:22 AM Emery Mitchamore wrote:
>
>> "Unnatural" is not a very useful way to describe the aquaponics process.
>> It's really a managed ecosystem; not at all like chemical-based
>> hydroponics, and can be very natural.  However, the main point I would
>> like to focus on is that intensive vegetable gardening is not incompatible
>> with aquaponics or Permaculture Forest Gardening, for that matter.
>> Although limited by my own time and energy, I will eventually doing all
>> three + chickens and bees.  If another venture can be folded in, I'll do
>> that too.  As we move forward into trying times, I believe we should be
>> embracing all options.
>>
>> E. E. "Mitch" Mitchamore
>> www.hillcountrynatives.net
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 11:02 PM, Tradingpost wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> But your aquaponic setup is only a small sideline to your buying club
>> which is largely non-local produce, correct? I'd be interested in any
>> sustainable, cost efficient food production system, but I have to be
>> skeptical of farmed fish. Also I understand it's a modified form of
>> hydroponics which I view as unnatural, tho others may see that
>> differently.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics
>>>
>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>>
>>>
>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>>
>>> On 1/13/2011 at 8:34 PM Michelle Silva wrote:
>>>
>>>> @ paul (Tradingpost)-  I am surprised that you have not heard of people
>>>> "hyping"
>>>> aquaponics in years! There are tons of forums and more and more who are
>>>> growing
>>>> this way every day. It's a very sustainable way to grow and I believe as
>>>> many
>>>> others that may possibly be the best choice when fresh water becomes the
>>>> next
>>>> crisis, (but no need to wait until then!).
>>>>
>>>> I have a backyard aquaponics system that I built in my suburban
>>>> residential
>>>> backyard. I also run a buying club as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> @ Paul the Skeptic- Where are you located? I love growing this way. I
>>>> have over
>>>> 3,000 plants and room for more than twice that on our small  half acre
>> lot.
>>>> www.passionforproduce.net
>>>> The pics on the site are older, there are a few newer ones on the
>> "Passion
>>>> for
>>>> Produce" facebook page, including the ones of the hoop houses we put up
>>>> yesterday. (bamboo and pvc).
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Michelle Silva
>>>> Sarasota, Fl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "paul@oneseedling.com" <paul@oneseedling.com>
>>>> To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
>>>> <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>> Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 9:52:06 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] World Hunger Best Cured by Small-Scale
>>>> Agriculture
>>>>
>>>> So, if it is so simple then why is it not working? 
>>>> I was trying to point out problems and why the system quit working and
>>>> possible
>>>> solutions, not being sarcastic as yourself not to mention I was not
>>>> derisive of
>>>> your qualifications as you were mine.
>>>> I guess flaming is ok since you seem to run the site.
>>>> I thought that the idea here was to help not ridicule however I noticed
>>>> that
>>>> this is not the case.
>>>>
>>>> Paul the Skeptic
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 8:10 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well Mr. Skeptic, since I don't have a PhD I disagree (B.A., post grad,
>>>> TX
>>>>> A&M), and I'm not talking about the grand things I'm going to do but
>> the
>>>> modest
>>>>> things I'm already doing.  Permaculture principles are valid but so
>>>> called
>>>>> certification is - to be charitable - a waste of paper. The problem is
>>>> not money
>>>>> since I've done it on a shoestring and lease my place on one acre for
>>>> $360 mo
>>>>> with good well, and I see thousands of homes in my area with plenty of
>>>> space for
>>>>> growing without buying land to farm. And under optimal conditions you
>> can
>>>> make a
>>>>> lot more than $40,000 from an acre. And there are thousands of market
>>>> growers
>>>>> making money, not less than 5000, and that's public knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From where I stand the market crowds are anything but yuppies (have
>>>> something
>>>>> against yuppies?). We've sold at four different markets and they're
>>>> mostly older
>>>>> adults who remember what real food tastes like, and many on tight
>>>> budgets. To
>>>>> continue, having just stated people can't make more than $40,000 from
>> an
>>>> acre
>>>>> selling to markets, you then claim you will clear $80,000 the first
>> year
>>>> selling
>>>>> to 2 farmers markets, all from a 32x100 greenhouse (I haven't seen
>>>> anybody
>>>>> hyping aquaponics in years). To top that off, you seem to say that
>>>> homemade
>>>>> wells and generating windmills are not an expense (perhaps capital
>>>> investments
>>>>> in materials don't count). I suspect your PhD is not in accounting.
>>>>>
>>>>> You conclude:
>>>>>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over
>> the
>>>>>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed.
>> To
>>>>>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas
>>>> of
>>>>>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Millions of people can cut grocery and medical costs and supplement
>>>> their
>>>>> income now, where they are, by growing food (I include a large portion
>> of
>>>> the
>>>>> unemployed in that), and home growing is in fact expanding by leaps and
>>>> bounds
>>>>> as are farmers markets. We don't need to tear down anything. I believe
>> it
>>>> was
>>>>> Bucky Fuller who wrote that the way to change a system is to build the
>>>> new
>>>>> within the shell of the old - and make the old irrelevant. And a
>>>> different
>>>>> approach to food production and consumption will implement itself. I
>> only
>>>> try to
>>>>> be one of the many helping others to be ready before they are forced
>> to.
>>>> To
>>>>> imply what I'm actually doing - and promoting - as "lofty ideas" that
>> are
>>>>> somehow impractical to implement, is frankly, bullshit.
>>>>>
>>>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/13/2011 at 4:09 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I am aware of all of that. My PhD is in Sustainable Agriculture
>> and
>>>>>> I am a certified teacher of Permaculture. The problem is still money,
>>>> not
>>>>>> technique. Land is still $5-10,000 an acre.
>>>>>> One can make $40,000 + an acre selling vegetables, more than that and
>>>> you
>>>>>> have to jump into selling to chain grocery stores like HEB which puts
>>>> you
>>>>>> into the commercial market with minimum quotas etc.
>>>>>> Want to live on the land and raise a family. Oops, back in the old
>> debt
>>>>>> game.
>>>>>> My point is that although it can be done there are probably less than
>>>> 5000
>>>>>> families in the US doing it. Maybe that many more that are capable of
>>>> it.
>>>>>> Farmers markets, while a great outlet for the small gardner account
>> for
>>>>>> less than 1% of the market and mostly a yuppie outdoor shopping mart.
>>
>>>>>> Now having said all that we will be growing vegetables in a 32x100
>>>>>> greenhouse using aquaponics and expect to clear $80,000 the first year
>>>>>> selling to 2 farmers markets. The difference is I am 63 years old,
>> land
>>>> is
>>>>>> paid for and I traded for the greenhouse. I drilled my own wells,
>> built
>>>> my
>>>>>> own water pumping windmills, wind generators etc.  So no expenses.
>>>>>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over
>> the
>>>>>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed.
>> To
>>>>>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas
>>>> of
>>>>>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it.
>>>>>> Like Pogo said. " I have seen the enemy and he is us"
>>>>>> Paul the Skeptici
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 2:22 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, skeptic, you've hit on the matter that happens to be my pet
>>>>>> speciality. We know from official statistics that small farmers who do
>>>> buy
>>>>>> the machinery and land etc. can hardly make ends meet, so the typical
>>>>>> family farmer today (what's left of them) has an outside job just to
>> pay
>>>>>> bills and keep the farm. I've seen a figure of a couple million just
>> to
>>>>>> get started in farming. And the big corporate farms get subsidies,
>> price
>>>>>> supports, and crop insurance to sell to the middlemen who set the
>>>> prices.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the question is where does that leave us. It helps to clearly see
>>>>>> that box we have to think outside of, and fortunately you do. So don't
>>>>>> grow wheat to harvest by hand; don't compete with big agribusiness on
>>>>>> their cheap, poisoned, subsidized commodities; it's a rigged game and
>>>> the
>>>>>> house always wins.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Grow intensive on small areas at low cost and bypass the middleman by
>>>>>> selling retail at full price. I do this, no tiller, no help, upscale
>>>>>> markets for retail prices. You probably can't make a high income this
>>>> way
>>>>>> without being in a great year-round climate with lots of upscale
>>>> customers
>>>>>> close by and plenty of free family labor. But it is a way millions can
>>>>>> supplement their income by just growing on the property they already
>>>> have
>>>>>> or by working with those nearby who do have room to grow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Intensive isn't original with me, nor other growing methods. The key
>> to
>>>>>> it is permanent beds and aisles in a limited space. Beds not compacted
>>>> by
>>>>>> feet or machines don't need tilling, and don't need to be raised or
>>>> framed
>>>>>> if conditions are right. And organic amendments, irrigation, weeding,
>>>> and
>>>>>> mulching is cut in half at least - literally - compared to inefficient
>>>>>> tractor rows. And it's called intensive because you can get a lot more
>>>>>> production in a given garden area, with equidistant planting (instead
>> of
>>>>>> 4" between seeds and 18" between rows - makes no sense at all). Like
>> at
>>>>>> least 2-300 carrots in one 3'x8' bed without crowding. Do the math.
>> You
>>>>>> also focus on space-saving high value varieties intead of space hogs
>>>> like
>>>>>> pumpkins or grains. You use season extension techniques like homemade
>>>>>> tunnels, greenhouses, cold frames, or row covers. You adapt to your
>>>>>> climate and beat others to market with early protected starts from
>> seed
>>>> to
>>>>>> transplant. I have no experience with brambles
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> orchards or value added products, so I'm not sure how that works in
>>>>>> this context. There's much more information out there from many
>>>> sources.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/13/2011 at 12:40 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Livingontheland mailing list
>>>>>>> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Livingontheland mailing list
>>>>>> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Livingontheland mailing list
>>>>> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Livingontheland mailing list
>>>> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Livingontheland mailing list
>>>> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Livingontheland mailing list
>>> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Livingontheland mailing list
>> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
_______________________________________________
Livingontheland mailing list
Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland