Healthy soil and sustainable growing

[Marty Kraft <martyk@allspecies.org>]

Paul

I think it's something far deeper than ownership that makes you care. I  
believe that you care about the earth and places and things far beyond  
what you personally own. I'm not sure that I can put into words exactly  
what it is that people care about that makes then good stewards of  
land. Maybe it's that we feel like that we're a part of something  
instead of being a separate individual. Peoples who believe that they  
belong to the land and have no concept of ownership are very capable  
for caring for the land, some for seven generations into the future.

Marty Kraft
On Jul 18, 2006, at 10:23 AM, TradingPostPaul wrote:

> And I respect your lifetime of experience and knowledge. I didn't make  
> it
> clear enough that intentional communities are fine by me, people can  
> make
> any living arrangements that suit them. What I took issue with was the  
> idea
> of the hippie commune, all things in common, nobody responsible - an
> untenable lifestyle because only a handful survived at all.  
> Specifically
> their claims they were the wave of the future, the only right way to  
> live.
> Like, food grows itself without work.
>
> Understand I'm not sneering at ICs with 3 or 4 members; how others  
> choose
> to live isn't my business. What they call a family isn't for me to say.
> But that list is calling everybody that lives with someone else  
> they're not
> related to an intentional community, from college dorm arrangements to
> gated developments. They watered it down so much it's completely
> meaningless. What's the point then? That could include millions, most  
> with
> nothing to do with living on the land.
>
> But my view is, ownership of land and natural family is the best
> arrangement to encourage  stewardship of the land. Others can disagree,
> obviously. Joel Salatin said the definition of a successful farm is one
> that your children will want passed on to them. He's well known as a  
> very
> successful 5th generation farmer on the same land. Family ownership of  
> land
> has been traditional worldwide for ages and it's not really financial  
> or
> corporate capitalism as we see it today. Extended families on their own
> land predates modern capitalism by millennia. It's natural.
>
> It's my position that only with ownership comes responsibility. It's no
> guarantee of sustainable farming or success. But an artificial family
> owning agricultural land in common is a prescription for problems  
> because
> they can (and do) come and go at will. They have no stake in the  
> future of
> it, little incentive to improve the land. They may not even be around  
> next
> growing season. Agricultural ICs without natural family ownership  
> simply
> don't function to honor and preserve the land for future generations.
> That's what I see.
>
> I'm with Joel Salatin on this one.
> http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2006/05/no_bar_code.html? 
> welcome=tru
> e
>
> paul, tradingpost@riseup.net
> ---------------
> The care of the Earth is our most ancient and most worthy, and after  
> all
> our most pleasing responsibility. To cherish what remains of it and to
> foster its renewal is our only hope.
>    - Wendell Berry
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 7/18/2006 at 8:11 AM Uriel wrote:
>
> > Paul,
> > I have enormous respect for the job you do with this list in expanding
> > all our knowledge of living on the land in an intelligent and  
> > productive
> > way. But I must question how well you understand the community  
> > movement.
> > Having been involved with community for 35 years I've seen a lot and
> > think I've gained some understanding of why communities seem to have  
> > had
> > limited success. The biggest single handicap that I've observed (and  
> > my
> > own prejudice shows here, I'm sure) is that in order to live in
> > community you have to be able to relinquish many of the concepts of
> > ownership and control that are basic to capitalist philosophy. I do
> > believe that we are seeing the beginning of the demise of  
> > international
> > corporate capitalism and that its collapse will result in many  
> > changes,
> > eventually, in how the survivors view those concepts.
> >
> > BTW, you sneer at communities that only have 3 or 4 members. Do you
> > sneer at families that have only 2 or 3 children as failures to
> > reproduce more abundantly? We in community have the luxury of choosing
> > our families and it's an ongoing process that can lead to immensely
> > rewarding experiences and relationships. I would not for anything  
> > trade
> > it for the confining environment of the nuclear family that has  
> > devolved
> > from the traditional extended family tribal grouping. It is that sense
> > of the tribe that many of us are searching to reproduce as best we  
> > can.
> >
> > Uriel / SW Missouri
> >
> > TradingPostPaul wrote:
> > > Doing more checking to see if there are agricultural ICs I missed in  
> > > the
> > > past. Going through the "A"s, I find  Alpha Farm at Deadwood, Oregon,
> and
> > > it looks promising. Been around since 1970. Then I scroll down and  
> > > see
> > they
> > > have a grand total of 4 adults.
>
>
>
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