Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/

[Evan Zimmerman <evan.zimmerman AT gmail.com>]

Well, I'll tell you. If you boil it down like you have here on your page...

"October 11, 2002
John Kerry voted to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq
October 17, 2003
John Kerry votes against funds for our troops in Iraq"

...it wouldn't seem clear at all, now would it? But that's not the
complete story that you've got there.
It neglects to account for the conditions of the vote and the fact
that as I recall, a ton of crap was larded onto that vote in an
attempt to force democrats into a corner -- vote for funding
republican pet projects and pork, or vote against "our troops". It's
BS. Senators have to make hard choices. Kerry did what he thought was
best and I don't fault him for it, no matter how much you care to
recontextualize it.

We can agree to disagree on this one -- Kerry will do better in Iraq,
better in the world, and better for the US economy than Bush. Hands
down.

Evan


On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:21:18 -0400, Tony Spencer <tony AT tonyspencer.com> wrote:
> That is very clear to you?  Last night he first said Iraq was a mistake, and
> very shortly thereafter said Iraq wasn't a mistake.  How is that clear?
> 
> Republicans don't have to say anything about flip flop.  Kerry's words speak
> for themself.
> 
> http://john-kerry.tonyspencer.com/iraq-flip-flop.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: internetworkers-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > [mailto:internetworkers-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
> > Of Evan Zimmerman
> > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:08 PM
> > To: Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/
> > Subject: Re: [internetworkers] immediate reactions
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > That stuff'll fly with people who don't follow this stuff, but give me
> > a break -- the flip flop thing is a charade. Every replublican
> > campaign for years has run that attack because it's so hard to fight.
> > But it's truly disingenuous and a distraction from discussion.
> >
> > Kerry's message was very clear. The difference between last night and
> > recent months is, he finally boiled it down to a sentence instead of a
> > speech.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 09:38:14 -0400, Tony Spencer
> > <tony AT tonyspencer.com> wrote:
> > > Substance?
> > >
> > > Kerry couldn't even stick to one position on Iraq during the debate!
> > >
> > > KERRY: "...But the president made a mistake in invading Iraq."
> > > .
> > > .
> > > .
> > > LEHRER: "Are Americans now dying in Iraq for a mistake? "
> > >
> > > KERRY: "No, and they don't have to, providing we have the
> > leadership that we
> > > put -- that I'm offering."
> > >
> > > Phew.  Glad he cleared up the confusion.
> > >
> > > I agree with you on style.  Bush didn't look good but Kerry
> > lacked a clear
> > > message.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: internetworkers-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > [mailto:internetworkers-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
> > > > Of Sasha Akhavi
> > > > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 1:00 AM
> > > > To: Ian Meyer; Internetworkers:
> > > > http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/
> > > > Subject: Re: [internetworkers] immediate reactions
> > > >
> > > > It wasn't style that tripped Bush up tonight; it was
> > substance.  This
> > > > was the most issues-focused debate I have seen in a presidential
> > > > election - no outstanding quips, no distracting jabs,
> > just 90 minutes
> > > > of Jim Lehrer and John Kerry confronting George Bush about his
> > > > policies in Iraq, and George Bush faltering in response.
> > > >
> > > > 3) big things came out of this debate for me: 1) Kerry seemed more
> > > > presidential - more mature, more resolute, more
> > intelligent and less
> > > > whiny - than the President and had the opportunity to recast the
> > > > "flip-flopping" characterization Bush has tried to level
> > at him; 2)
> > > > Bush was shown up as valuing certainty above rectitude,
> > in the face
> > > > of all evidence;  3) Kerry reestablished his credentials as a
> > > > military leader, and a more circumspect one than the President has
> > > > been.  I'm as biased as they come too, but his respect
> > for the people
> > > > doing the fighting, and his pledge that their endagerment would be
> > > > his last resort, was inescapably more sincere than Bush's.
> > > >
> > > > ... and after sending out this highly partisan message,
> > I'm going to
> > > > be gone for the weekend, so I won't be around to continue the
> > > > discussion til Monday.  See y'all then -SA
> > > >
> > > > >/me has no cable. :'(
> > > > >
> > > > >but i have to say, damn, i thought bush was supposed to
> > be a great
> > > > >debater (resisting saying hes a master debater) and had
> > never lost a
> > > > >debate in his life, but he messed that all up.
> > > > >
> > > > >Now, I'm about as biased as they come, but I'm not above calling
> > > > >someone out of he messed things up. There were a few times when I
> > > > >wanted to reach out and smack Kerry up side the head,
> > but I was too
> > > > >distracted by Bush blinking all the time...or pausing in....the
> > > > >middle........
> > > > >
> > > > >...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >of a sentence to compose himself...
> > > > >
> > > > >my $0.02
> > > > >ian
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 00:09:20 -0400, Thomas
> > > > <thomas AT tbeckett.com> wrote:
> > > > >>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > > >>  Hash: SHA1
> > > > >>
> > > > >>  So, how was the Daily Show tonight?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>  TaB
> > > > >>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > > >>  Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32)
> > > > >>  Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > iD8DBQFBXNhwEMCfelopa1cRAqpRAKCX98YQ16qF3+VQi6MukDEsnmpuwwCfa577
> > > > >>  tXLfe24cIbVYpY6SEfnvsFI=
> > > > >>  =qLEV
> > > > >>  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > > >>  ---
> > > > >>  Come and play at the InterNetWorkers Web site!
> > > > >>http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/
> > > > >>  You are currently subscribed to InterNetWorkers mailing list
> > > > >>  To unsubscribe visit
> > > > >>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/internetworkers
> > > > >>
> > > > >---
> > > > >Come and play at the InterNetWorkers Web site!
> > > > >http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/
> > > > >You are currently subscribed to InterNetWorkers mailing list
> > > > >To unsubscribe visit
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/internetworkers
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Come and play at the InterNetWorkers Web site!
> > > > http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/
> > > > You are currently subscribed to InterNetWorkers mailing list
> > > > To unsubscribe visit
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/internetworkers
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Come and play at the InterNetWorkers Web site!
> > http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/
> > > You are currently subscribed to InterNetWorkers mailing list
> > > To unsubscribe visit
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/internetworkers
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Evan
> >
> > _________________________
> > evan.zimmerman AT gmail.com
> > http://evanz.org
> > ---
> 
> 
> > Come and play at the InterNetWorkers Web site!
> > http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/
> > You are currently subscribed to InterNetWorkers mailing list
> > To unsubscribe visit
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/internetworkers
> >
> >
> 
> ---
> Come and play at the InterNetWorkers Web site!  
> http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/
> You are currently subscribed to InterNetWorkers mailing list
> To unsubscribe visit 
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/internetworkers
>