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  • From: Dan Smith <anilorac AT nc.rr.com>
  • To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [internetworkers] anyone see the Bush speech?
  • Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 12:33:47 -0400

My .02.

What about associated costs? First you have costs of covert programs, then if military force is required, the $B's which most likely won't be shared this time around. Then, if we engage a military action, what are the official and under table (kickbacks) costs to rebuild a decimated economy and install a new puppet government?
What I want to know is HOW does Bush/Rove explain this in such a way to gain widespread mainstream US acceptance when our own economy is in the toilet, and the Bush economic team receives failing grades on domestic policy by our nation's leading independent economists?
IMHO, these costs are difficult to justify when our stock market is down 40% (so far) during the Bush watch, companies aren't aren't hiring, and consumers are curtailing spending. The lastest consumer spending report hit the news yesterday.

The US is the key driver in the global economy; we can't rebuild other countries' economic infrastructure without our own rebound first.



David R. Matusiak wrote:

so, i've been stirring this pot on multiple lists (for months!) and getting zero responses. by zero, i mean "none" with the occasional "hey, support our leadership!" screech by Bush's apologists thrown in.

it pleases me greatly to now see that there are actually 4 (four) people who are thinking about this. with myself included, we could probably rig up a helluva jazz quintet. i dunno, maybe bluegrass.

i would also like to know who or what "IISS" is. i would also like sound, rational answers to the following list of questions (forwarded with permission from original author):
---
I think there are some questions that should be
investigated and answered:

1) What are the origins of the Al Quaeda movement, who
trained them, armed them and backed them in the
beginning.

2) How difficult is it to find a dialysis dependant
6"5' Arab who had his toes blown off during the
Soviet-Afghan war and his buddy the blind Taliban
Mullah who was ruling Afghanistan a year ago?

3) Why is the administration so unwilling to have a
threat assesment for Iraq done?

4) Is the Iraqi threat to create AND deliver
biological, chemical and/or nuclear weapons against
their populace or a neighboring populace greater or
equal to any other country?

5) Should the there be "regime change" in Iraq who
will replace Saddam? Will the new government be able
to hold itself together in the long run?

6) Will the new regime be able to effectively
introduce lasting democracy to a culturaly diverse
population? Will we be prepared to handle the choices
made by an Iraqi democracy?

7) Are we willing to station troops in a hostile
Afghanistan and Iraq for a decade or more to ensure
security to new governments?

8) How much of our Middle-Eastern foreign policy is
guided by an interest to protect Israel on the basis
that they are "the chosen people?"

9) Is there solid evidence tying the government of
Iraq to terrorist networks?

10) Will the US go after all governments that have
used chemical and biological weapons on their
populations?

11) Is the effort to go to war with Iraq a part of a
bait and switch...to redirect the US gaze from a
stalled effort to find the Al Quaeda bosses to a
winnable war?

12) What are the real motivations to going to war? Is
it a vendetta from the circa 1993 foiled assasination
attempt of the elder President Bush? Are the
motivations an attempt to consolidate the oil rights
of the middle east and Asia for US and British oil
interest? Or is it because we're afraid that Saddam is
capable of destroying the Iraqi and Arabian oil fields
and throwing the world and especially India and China
into economic disaster (Both India and China have seen
their oil consumption rise dramatically in recent
years and they receive the majority of their oil from
the Arabian peninsula).

13) Is the Administration's motivation to direct our
attention from an absent economic policy?

14) Why are so many Pentagon leaders, especially Army
officials opposed to going to war with Iraq now?

15) Is the Iraqi threat related to Al Quaeda and if so
how closely?

16) Who has the most to gain from the results of a regime
change in Iraq?

Something to ponder: In the late 90's the UN conducted
a study that concluded that at the current rate of
consumption that all of the known oil fields (tapped
and untapped) would be depleted in 75 years. In that
time, SUV sales have skyrocketted and the world's two
largest populations have begun to increase
industrialization.

I think we as a country should seriously consider what
we're getting ourselves into before we rush off to war
and I sincerely hope that we get some answers within
the week. Do I think Saddam is a bad guy, hell yeah.
But I don't want to see our conflict that will spread
us to thin to protect ourselves. One last thought, are
we trying to supply Richard Ashcroft with inspiration
for his next song?
---


On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 11:24 AM, Childers.Paula AT epamail.epa.gov wrote:



Actualy, it's "Josep".


Apologies, my finger didn't get to the "p" key, I know you're Josep :-)

Then, the myth was not an American invention. Kuwait lied to the US
congress.


Yes, they did.
""The story was a total invention, a fabrication and a myth, " reveals
Knightley. The teenage girl who so convincingly told of the horrors in
that ward was in fact the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the
United States. She had been coached and rehearsed by a US public
relations company who was hired by the Kuwaiti government in exile to
campaign for American military intervention to oust Iraq from Kuwait.
But the purpose had been served. Morally outraged, the US public backed
their government's military campaign against Saddam."
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0906-01.htm
http://www.sangam.org/ANALYSIS/MoralOutrage.htm
http://www.globaled.org/curriculum/cm18h.html

I already have said in my post that Iraq was seen as the US ally in

the

area against the religious revolution in Iran. Read it again.


Credit given. However, the point remains that we, in effect, have "set
him up." we gave him the first WMD's, and many more after that, and in
effect created the Hussein regime. We have no moral grounds to act
superior, or to believe we would do any better a second time around,
especially after we kill thousands more Iraqi civilians.

The papers from IISS indicate that they are still a danger, a growing
danger. This indicates that they are rebuilding their facilities and
capabilities.


I'm afraid I don't know this IISS. Who are they? Do they stand to make
money from a war? I think the bigger issue is, even if Hussein does have
WMD's, why does that make it OK for us to go after him? Why is Iraq any
different from Pakistan, which also has military rule and far more
dangerous terrorist activity? Why the double standard? (any SANE leader
of a small nation would want WMD's these days, as a deterrence factor.
Otherwise, there's nothing to prevent larger nations from invading them,
except the UN. oops, guess that doesn't work either) Is it because
Saddam won't be a puppet to US oil companies? Can anyone say
"Venezuela?"

Or that the US is in a recession, and GWB really needs a war to keep
peoples attention away from more pressing issues that could hurt the

GOP

in November.


It's a possibiblity, yes.


Frankly, it's one of the three primary motivations for this war:
distraction from the true issues of "homeland security" (unemployment,
poverty, the growing gap between the rich & everyone else),
consolidation of neo-liberal power in the US, and gaining control over
vast oil supplies. It's not that hard to figure out. Follow the money,
follow the power, figure out who really wins & loses. This war is SO not
about Hussein or WMD's.

Even Dubbya cannot change the constitution. This is the democratic US,
not a Junta-style place. If you do not like the current

representatives,

vote. Complaining and emigrating to Canada won't solve the problem.


If the Supreme Court is Republican-controlled, laws can be made by a
Republican-controlled Congress & interpreted as they see fit, regardless
of whether they are truly legitimate within the Constitution. Look up
the Alien & Sedition Acts, look at the McCarthy hearings, look at what
happened to Eugene Debs, look at the USA-PATRIOT Act. I vote, believe
me. And just remember, the VonTrapp family didn't want to emigrate,
either.

"Always war" as a solution is bad. As bad as it is "Never war". Have

you

ever trained a puppy? Do you know what happened to Lebanon? Who
remembers Chamberlain and the British cabinet that wanted to talk out

of

war some not-so-friendly central European nation? Have you ever seen
Milosevich repented of anything that he ordered?


I'm not against every war, just the ones that are immoral, unjustified,
manufactured, that will kill thousands of innocents, and that could
easily be avoided with little long-term consequence, if the world powers
collaborated on finding a real peaceful solution.

I keep hearing Hussein compared to Hitler. That is not a very good
analogy. Germany had immense capacity to manufacture heavy war machines
(anyone here ever read The Arms of Krupp?), and a large, well-trained
military force that included some very smart veterans of WWI, and a
populace with lots of anger at the surrounding nations over the post-WWI
reparations. Iraq has only a meager fighting force, of which many
intelligence agenicies expect 50% desertion rates; no heavy weapons
manufacturing capability; and a heavily-impoverished populace that
shares a common religion (albeit with variations) with its neighbors.
Regardless of Hussein's aspirations, Iraq is no Germany.

If you have no stick, there's no point of being nice. If you have a

big

stick, hold by a group of nations determined to use it, then, yes, you
can possibly skip waging war to Iraq.


I'm not sure I understand this stick analogy. Do you mean you'd support
a UN-led peaceful disarmament initiative? Or that if you have WMD's you
can play nice because of deterrence? :-)

But not even considering the war option, in this case, with the record
of the ruling Ba'as party in the last 20+ years... is just wrong,
hypocrite and unrealistic. Avoiding all possibilities of confrontation
today can very well mean a worst scenario a few years down the road.


well, how about an all-out investment in Iraqi poverty alleviation
through targeted UN & NGO intervention? And a concerted effort to win
over support for a democratic govt there? Not only lifting the embargoes
(which are just killing poor folk, making people more pissed at the US
and aren't harming Hussein himself at all), but truly trying to change
the minds of the people. The people are the most powerful weapon in any
country.

Whoever criticized Israel for blowing up Iraqi's Nuclear facilities in
the '80s has to be very glad that Saddam wasn't a nuclear power in the
gulf War.


I didn't say that, because I don't know anything about it.

Guess I just hope folks will PAY some $*%$#% ATTENTION to what ISN'T
being said by Bush & Co. before making up their minds. What is the
motivation behind their actions? Who stands to gain the most by war?
(hint: it isn't you, me, the nations of the world, or the Iraqi people)

pc
Jeffersonian patriot, fighter for the Good & True

Disclaimer: the opinions expressed herein are mine only, and not meant
to represent those of my employer or any other entity besides myself.
Although I wish they did!


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