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[bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>]

Bev, everything in your post was making the point of what I see happening.  
Now, maybe I didn't realize that it had already happened in the lives of 
highly intelligent, educated people, like you, to the extent that it has; but 
my point was that it is happening; it isn't fair, and I don't think the 
working class should or 'will' continue to accept things this way.

By the way, Bev.  I consider you and I to be the same 'class'.  Some of this 
labeling is very frustrating for me.  In a few years when your mortgage is 
paid off, and, if the real estate prices have picked back up, your net asset 
value could be larger than mine, if I have to spend my capital between now 
and then.  If I lose my medical insurance; 2 or 3 bad medical events 
w/hospitilization could completely wipe me out.  Never think I don't know 
that fear of being completely 'without'.  

I have a friend here, a retired restaurter.  he was a professional meat 
cutter over 35 years ago in Phoenix, and made enough to start his own 
successful busineesses.  he siad that in real money, factoring in inflation; 
a meat cutter today (mostly mexicans) make over 80% less than they did 35 
years ago.

I am not defending the way things are, I'm saying it isn't right.

I appreciate you taking the time to converse, and would like to continue this 
conversation, but, Bev; I need to know you understand, I am not rich, I am 
middle class; and yes I consider anyone who makes less than $200,000 per year 
middle class if they live in the city, but for the past couple of years, I 
not only didn't make that much, if you factor in my losses, I lost that much 
per year.  

Your 'class', if different than mine, is superior to mine.  I hope that I 
will evolve into the kind of person that you already are.  Never separate the 
two of us by 'class'.  Now, if you would like to contiunue this 
converstation, I would be pleased


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--- On Mon, 12/22/08, EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net> wrote:

> From: EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] [Homestead ] MY  microcosm of economic downturn
> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 8:07 AM
> bobf wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I think what is starting to happen is a fast
> separation between the 
> > working class and the business/professional class.  If
> this continues
> >  for more than a year or two -- and even that would be
> catastrophic--
> >  this country will become very different that what we
> know, today.
> 
> You remind me of my best friend A, Bob, you are out of
> touch with the
> lower echelons.  There has been a separation for quite a
> number of
> years now.
> The working class, for example, did not get a bonus this
> Christmas, for
> example, or maybe they got a $25 gift card or a turkey/ham.
>  Business
> and professional workers almost always get a bonus, even in
> a bad
> economy.  Working classes have no perks like business
> phones or long
> lunch hours-they punch a clock.
> 
> 
> > 
> > Her salary 'doubled'.  Now, she's not
> making the big bucks or 
> > anything , like with 'real ' bankers.  Still,
> she has not yet 
> > finished her undergraduate studies (she transferred to
> ASU from Texas
> >  where she lost her basketball scholarship, after an
> injury--she's 
> > 6') and she just went from making less than
> $24,000 to her new salry 
> > of $48,000.  Almost exactly doubling her salary.  At
> the same time, 
> > in the same town, I can get unskilled labor that will
> bust their 
> > butts for $5 to $7 per hour, that would have cost me
> at least $10 r 
> > $12 per hour, not even a year ago.  I can get
> 'skilled' labor, today,
> >  for the same $10 or $12 per hour that I would have
> paid for 
> > 'unskilled' labor , less than a year ago.  My
> bank employee friend is
> >  22 y.o., and making almost $50,000, with great
> benefits with her 
> > promotion;  while a 40 y.o. experienced carpenter is
> only getting $10
> >  per hour with no benefits for hard labor  skilled
> work, and he can't
> >  find enough work to support his family.  Something
> will have to 
> > give, if things continue like this.
> 
> 
> You know Bob, the first thing you said was that she was a
> young girl
> that you chatted and flirted with.  Do you not think this
> might have
> anything to do with her salary doubling at the age of 22,
> before she
> even finishes school?
> In my last two jobs, I have been subjected to
> discrimination and
> harassment.  At the grocery store, the owner told the
> manager than when
> he walked through the store, he did not want to see me, a
> 40 year old
> woman, he wanted to see a pretty young thing whose butt he
> wanted to
> slap as he walked by.  More recently, in my last job, I
> made less than
> half of my male co-workers doing the same do.
> Point is, in a good economy, it is easy to be inclusive and
> treat people
> fairly.  In a bad economy, all kinds of crap happens.
> Your last comparison between the bank employee and the
> carpenter reminds
> me of James' post about real vs. imaginary money.  He
> did not use those
> words, but he was talking about value and paper value vs.
> actual value.
> IMO, the actual value guy is the carpenter, the skilled
> laborer.  He can
> produce something related to food, clothing, or shelter,
> namely shelter.
> IMO, the bank employee has a 'paper' job, and yet,
> she is the one who is
> rewarded handsomely.
> It is all screwed up Bob, and it has been for quite some
> time.  It is
> not that it is going to happen, it already has happened and
> it has been
> that way for a while.  Your story below proves my point.
> That is why so
> many "working class" people are totally fed up in
> this country and voted
> for change in the way things are done.
> 
> > 
> > I went to a popular local breakfast hangout yesterday,
> a mid-priced 
> > place, an omelet breakfast with tip will run about
> $15.  The place 
> > was packed as usual.  People in their Ralph Lauren and
> fancy 
> > handbags, plenty of German and better Japanes cars in
> the parking 
> > lot.  .  Everything seemed very normal.  But, I wonder
> what it was 
> > like at McDonalds with their dollar menu.  Were people
> buying one 
> > less egg mcmuffin?  If what I am seeing, and fearing
> is correct, this
> >  will change society.  Working people won't, and
> shouldn't, in my 
> > opinion, put up with this for long.
> 
> Workers in my class would not have had breakfast for $15,
> or even $10.
> Workers in my class would either have no breakfast, or
> maybe a muffin or
> toast with some coffee.  If they did go to McDonalds, they
> would have a
> Mcmuffin.  To answer the question, fast food places like
> MickeyD's have
> seen an upturn in business, due to the some people
> 'cutting back' from
> their more usual places and 'returning' to fast
> food.  This will mean
> more minimum wage jobs available, more burger flipping jobs
> for the
> carpenters to learn.
> 
> > 
> > What I'm afraid will happen, though, is that the
> middle class -- not
> >  the very comfortable, and certainly not the rich --
> will bear the 
> > brunt of the anger of the dis-enfranchised working
> class.
> 
> I have come to believe that there is no such thing as the
> middle class
> anymore. I don't know when it disappeared, but I
> don't see it.   Twenty
> five years ago, I would say that we were middle class, dead
> middle, but
> we have dropped back and society would now label me as
> lower
> class/working poor/lower middle-somewhere in there.  Your
> banking friend
> makes more than we do...  Some folks in the old
> neighborhood moved up
> into a 'business class', the people you probably
> consider the middle
> class..those making maybe 75-125K or so.  I don't know
> how you or
> society defines these things.  IMO, someone who makes 100K
> a year is not
>   middle class.  At best I would call that upper middle.
> 
> As to who bears the brunt, that is anyone's guess.  I
> think for the most
> part that the working class is too beaten down to do
> anything.
> 
>   Oh, sure, a few men who make eight and nine figure
> > salries have vounteered to work for a buck this year,
> but, they'll 
> > make that back , have no fear.  Why was there no
> outcry for the white
> >  collar salaried employee's salaries like there
> was for the blue 
> > collar workers wages?
> 
> ????  Because those white collared salaried employees can
> still actually
> make a living?  Because they still get their Christmas
> bonuses, their
> 401k matching?
> In my last job, the ones who lost out were the little guys.
>  The mid
> level people raked in...got more hours and more money
> taking over jobs
> that had been done by people 'under them'.
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > One of my neighbors is just finishing extensive
> interior renovations
> >  on his house, so I walked down yesterday to look at
> his new custom 
> > made knotty alder cabinets and his front entrance door
> that cost more
> >  than an excellent used car, and his new 21 seer (?)
> cooling system.
> >  I aske dhim what in the world he was spending so much
> for, in this 
> > economy.  he's a bit older than me and
> semi-retired.  he said , well
> >  he already had planned to do this , over a year ago
> (he re-married 
> > about that time) and he say, "hey, I'm
> getting excellent labor 
> > ,cheaper than I've seen it in ages".  The
> problem is he expects to 
> > move to his retiremnet home , up around, Sedona -- in
> five years.  He
> >  thinks that the economy will have completely
> recovered and he'll be
> >  able to recouop the approx. $200,000 of renovations
> in five years. I
> >  think he is way off on his timing.
> 
> We are very out of touch with each other, Bob.  Your post
> might as well
> be written in Chinese.
> Extensive interior renovations that were done by hired
> labor, yet you
> said "one of my neighbors is finishing" like the
> guy did the work himself.
> The words 'custom made' implied 'hired
> out', too.
> New front door, AC system
> All from a 'semi-retired' guy?
> 
> I can't think of anyone on my road or in my
> neighborhood-really in my
> town, that could afford to do all of those things right
> now.  Even my
> best friend couldn't do it.  You live in a totally
> different world,
> feels like a different planet, than I do.
> 
> > 
> > He'll be alright, either way; just worth less, if
> I'm right.  But, 
> > people who build things or repair things or service
> things or servive
> >  the people who build and repair; they are looking at
> very bleak 
> > times ahead.  A man who swings a hammer or turns a
> wrench or lays 
> > pipe is going to work harder for less income,
> 'when' he can find 
> > work.
> 
> Again, this is going on all over, and has been.  Ron still
> works the 10+
> hours a day that he used to work 20 years ago, and he makes
> about 35% of
> what he used to make.  This year we will make about 40%
> less than last
> year, even with me working more than half the year.
> But we aren't worried, Bob, because there will soon be
> lots of low
> income burger flipping jobs.<G>
> My friend A took me shopping and to lunch last week.  I may
> have already
> mentioned it here(that kind of thing is a big deal and
> treat in my
> life).  She mentioned her dh's Christmas bonus, and I
> said It is nice
> that you get one..oh, she said, everyone at XXX gets a
> bonus, a good
> one, too.  I said, everyone??? Even the guys out in the
> plant, the
> forklift drivers and shippers and such?  Well no, of
> course, her
> 'everyone' included only the office people, the
> white collars...
> I mentioned that her dh was lucky in that he had job
> security, and since
> his company was doing okay, I wondered how a depressed
> economy might
> affect her.  Her response was that they would have to cut
> back on buying
> toys(ATV's and such) and maybe take fewer trips or
> closer to home trips.
>   They might not get their paid to Europe this year.
> <Sigh>  This is my
> best friend in my real life.  Even she though, is not
> replacing the
> front door of her house or making extensive renovations
> with hired
> labor.  But now, maybe you see why I rely on you guys for
> support.
> 
> Bob, watch that show Secret Millionaire....those
> Millionaires are
> peeking into my world.  When you make posts like this one,
> I often feel
> like you are one of those millionaires who has no clue as
> to how the
> rest of the population, not just homesteaders, live.  I
> really don't
> mean that to be as harsh as it sounds, but I just wanted
> you to know how
> out of touch with the 'populous' I think you are. 
> Perhaps Phoenix is
> doing better than other parts of the country, I dunno.
> 
> Bev
> 
> 
> -- 
> The true significance of Sacajawea's involvement in the
> Lewis & Clark
> expedition is that it was the first documented trip in
> history where men
> asked a woman for directions and followed them, allowing
> them to arrive
> at their destination.
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