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  • From: bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
  • To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [Homestead] [Homestead ] MY microcosm of economic downturn
  • Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:35:47 -0800 (PST)

Bev, everything in your post was making the point of what I see happening.
Now, maybe I didn't realize that it had already happened in the lives of
highly intelligent, educated people, like you, to the extent that it has; but
my point was that it is happening; it isn't fair, and I don't think the
working class should or 'will' continue to accept things this way.

By the way, Bev. I consider you and I to be the same 'class'. Some of this
labeling is very frustrating for me. In a few years when your mortgage is
paid off, and, if the real estate prices have picked back up, your net asset
value could be larger than mine, if I have to spend my capital between now
and then. If I lose my medical insurance; 2 or 3 bad medical events
w/hospitilization could completely wipe me out. Never think I don't know
that fear of being completely 'without'.

I have a friend here, a retired restaurter. he was a professional meat
cutter over 35 years ago in Phoenix, and made enough to start his own
successful busineesses. he siad that in real money, factoring in inflation;
a meat cutter today (mostly mexicans) make over 80% less than they did 35
years ago.

I am not defending the way things are, I'm saying it isn't right.

I appreciate you taking the time to converse, and would like to continue this
conversation, but, Bev; I need to know you understand, I am not rich, I am
middle class; and yes I consider anyone who makes less than $200,000 per year
middle class if they live in the city, but for the past couple of years, I
not only didn't make that much, if you factor in my losses, I lost that much
per year.

Your 'class', if different than mine, is superior to mine. I hope that I
will evolve into the kind of person that you already are. Never separate the
two of us by 'class'. Now, if you would like to contiunue this
converstation, I would be pleased


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


--- On Mon, 12/22/08, EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net> wrote:

> From: EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] [Homestead ] MY microcosm of economic downturn
> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 8:07 AM
> bobf wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think what is starting to happen is a fast
> separation between the
> > working class and the business/professional class. If
> this continues
> > for more than a year or two -- and even that would be
> catastrophic--
> > this country will become very different that what we
> know, today.
>
> You remind me of my best friend A, Bob, you are out of
> touch with the
> lower echelons. There has been a separation for quite a
> number of
> years now.
> The working class, for example, did not get a bonus this
> Christmas, for
> example, or maybe they got a $25 gift card or a turkey/ham.
> Business
> and professional workers almost always get a bonus, even in
> a bad
> economy. Working classes have no perks like business
> phones or long
> lunch hours-they punch a clock.
>
>
> >
> > Her salary 'doubled'. Now, she's not
> making the big bucks or
> > anything , like with 'real ' bankers. Still,
> she has not yet
> > finished her undergraduate studies (she transferred to
> ASU from Texas
> > where she lost her basketball scholarship, after an
> injury--she's
> > 6') and she just went from making less than
> $24,000 to her new salry
> > of $48,000. Almost exactly doubling her salary. At
> the same time,
> > in the same town, I can get unskilled labor that will
> bust their
> > butts for $5 to $7 per hour, that would have cost me
> at least $10 r
> > $12 per hour, not even a year ago. I can get
> 'skilled' labor, today,
> > for the same $10 or $12 per hour that I would have
> paid for
> > 'unskilled' labor , less than a year ago. My
> bank employee friend is
> > 22 y.o., and making almost $50,000, with great
> benefits with her
> > promotion; while a 40 y.o. experienced carpenter is
> only getting $10
> > per hour with no benefits for hard labor skilled
> work, and he can't
> > find enough work to support his family. Something
> will have to
> > give, if things continue like this.
>
>
> You know Bob, the first thing you said was that she was a
> young girl
> that you chatted and flirted with. Do you not think this
> might have
> anything to do with her salary doubling at the age of 22,
> before she
> even finishes school?
> In my last two jobs, I have been subjected to
> discrimination and
> harassment. At the grocery store, the owner told the
> manager than when
> he walked through the store, he did not want to see me, a
> 40 year old
> woman, he wanted to see a pretty young thing whose butt he
> wanted to
> slap as he walked by. More recently, in my last job, I
> made less than
> half of my male co-workers doing the same do.
> Point is, in a good economy, it is easy to be inclusive and
> treat people
> fairly. In a bad economy, all kinds of crap happens.
> Your last comparison between the bank employee and the
> carpenter reminds
> me of James' post about real vs. imaginary money. He
> did not use those
> words, but he was talking about value and paper value vs.
> actual value.
> IMO, the actual value guy is the carpenter, the skilled
> laborer. He can
> produce something related to food, clothing, or shelter,
> namely shelter.
> IMO, the bank employee has a 'paper' job, and yet,
> she is the one who is
> rewarded handsomely.
> It is all screwed up Bob, and it has been for quite some
> time. It is
> not that it is going to happen, it already has happened and
> it has been
> that way for a while. Your story below proves my point.
> That is why so
> many "working class" people are totally fed up in
> this country and voted
> for change in the way things are done.
>
> >
> > I went to a popular local breakfast hangout yesterday,
> a mid-priced
> > place, an omelet breakfast with tip will run about
> $15. The place
> > was packed as usual. People in their Ralph Lauren and
> fancy
> > handbags, plenty of German and better Japanes cars in
> the parking
> > lot. . Everything seemed very normal. But, I wonder
> what it was
> > like at McDonalds with their dollar menu. Were people
> buying one
> > less egg mcmuffin? If what I am seeing, and fearing
> is correct, this
> > will change society. Working people won't, and
> shouldn't, in my
> > opinion, put up with this for long.
>
> Workers in my class would not have had breakfast for $15,
> or even $10.
> Workers in my class would either have no breakfast, or
> maybe a muffin or
> toast with some coffee. If they did go to McDonalds, they
> would have a
> Mcmuffin. To answer the question, fast food places like
> MickeyD's have
> seen an upturn in business, due to the some people
> 'cutting back' from
> their more usual places and 'returning' to fast
> food. This will mean
> more minimum wage jobs available, more burger flipping jobs
> for the
> carpenters to learn.
>
> >
> > What I'm afraid will happen, though, is that the
> middle class -- not
> > the very comfortable, and certainly not the rich --
> will bear the
> > brunt of the anger of the dis-enfranchised working
> class.
>
> I have come to believe that there is no such thing as the
> middle class
> anymore. I don't know when it disappeared, but I
> don't see it. Twenty
> five years ago, I would say that we were middle class, dead
> middle, but
> we have dropped back and society would now label me as
> lower
> class/working poor/lower middle-somewhere in there. Your
> banking friend
> makes more than we do... Some folks in the old
> neighborhood moved up
> into a 'business class', the people you probably
> consider the middle
> class..those making maybe 75-125K or so. I don't know
> how you or
> society defines these things. IMO, someone who makes 100K
> a year is not
> middle class. At best I would call that upper middle.
>
> As to who bears the brunt, that is anyone's guess. I
> think for the most
> part that the working class is too beaten down to do
> anything.
>
> Oh, sure, a few men who make eight and nine figure
> > salries have vounteered to work for a buck this year,
> but, they'll
> > make that back , have no fear. Why was there no
> outcry for the white
> > collar salaried employee's salaries like there
> was for the blue
> > collar workers wages?
>
> ???? Because those white collared salaried employees can
> still actually
> make a living? Because they still get their Christmas
> bonuses, their
> 401k matching?
> In my last job, the ones who lost out were the little guys.
> The mid
> level people raked in...got more hours and more money
> taking over jobs
> that had been done by people 'under them'.
>
>
>
> >
> > One of my neighbors is just finishing extensive
> interior renovations
> > on his house, so I walked down yesterday to look at
> his new custom
> > made knotty alder cabinets and his front entrance door
> that cost more
> > than an excellent used car, and his new 21 seer (?)
> cooling system.
> > I aske dhim what in the world he was spending so much
> for, in this
> > economy. he's a bit older than me and
> semi-retired. he said , well
> > he already had planned to do this , over a year ago
> (he re-married
> > about that time) and he say, "hey, I'm
> getting excellent labor
> > ,cheaper than I've seen it in ages". The
> problem is he expects to
> > move to his retiremnet home , up around, Sedona -- in
> five years. He
> > thinks that the economy will have completely
> recovered and he'll be
> > able to recouop the approx. $200,000 of renovations
> in five years. I
> > think he is way off on his timing.
>
> We are very out of touch with each other, Bob. Your post
> might as well
> be written in Chinese.
> Extensive interior renovations that were done by hired
> labor, yet you
> said "one of my neighbors is finishing" like the
> guy did the work himself.
> The words 'custom made' implied 'hired
> out', too.
> New front door, AC system
> All from a 'semi-retired' guy?
>
> I can't think of anyone on my road or in my
> neighborhood-really in my
> town, that could afford to do all of those things right
> now. Even my
> best friend couldn't do it. You live in a totally
> different world,
> feels like a different planet, than I do.
>
> >
> > He'll be alright, either way; just worth less, if
> I'm right. But,
> > people who build things or repair things or service
> things or servive
> > the people who build and repair; they are looking at
> very bleak
> > times ahead. A man who swings a hammer or turns a
> wrench or lays
> > pipe is going to work harder for less income,
> 'when' he can find
> > work.
>
> Again, this is going on all over, and has been. Ron still
> works the 10+
> hours a day that he used to work 20 years ago, and he makes
> about 35% of
> what he used to make. This year we will make about 40%
> less than last
> year, even with me working more than half the year.
> But we aren't worried, Bob, because there will soon be
> lots of low
> income burger flipping jobs.<G>
> My friend A took me shopping and to lunch last week. I may
> have already
> mentioned it here(that kind of thing is a big deal and
> treat in my
> life). She mentioned her dh's Christmas bonus, and I
> said It is nice
> that you get one..oh, she said, everyone at XXX gets a
> bonus, a good
> one, too. I said, everyone??? Even the guys out in the
> plant, the
> forklift drivers and shippers and such? Well no, of
> course, her
> 'everyone' included only the office people, the
> white collars...
> I mentioned that her dh was lucky in that he had job
> security, and since
> his company was doing okay, I wondered how a depressed
> economy might
> affect her. Her response was that they would have to cut
> back on buying
> toys(ATV's and such) and maybe take fewer trips or
> closer to home trips.
> They might not get their paid to Europe this year.
> <Sigh> This is my
> best friend in my real life. Even she though, is not
> replacing the
> front door of her house or making extensive renovations
> with hired
> labor. But now, maybe you see why I rely on you guys for
> support.
>
> Bob, watch that show Secret Millionaire....those
> Millionaires are
> peeking into my world. When you make posts like this one,
> I often feel
> like you are one of those millionaires who has no clue as
> to how the
> rest of the population, not just homesteaders, live. I
> really don't
> mean that to be as harsh as it sounds, but I just wanted
> you to know how
> out of touch with the 'populous' I think you are.
> Perhaps Phoenix is
> doing better than other parts of the country, I dunno.
>
> Bev
>
>
> --
> The true significance of Sacajawea's involvement in the
> Lewis & Clark
> expedition is that it was the first documented trip in
> history where men
> asked a woman for directions and followed them, allowing
> them to arrive
> at their destination.
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