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[EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net>]

bobf wrote:
> I think what is starting to happen is a fast separation between the 
> working class and the business/professional class.  If this continues
>  for more than a year or two -- and even that would be catastrophic--
>  this country will become very different that what we know, today.

You remind me of my best friend A, Bob, you are out of touch with the
lower echelons.  There has been a separation for quite a number of
years now.
The working class, for example, did not get a bonus this Christmas, for
example, or maybe they got a $25 gift card or a turkey/ham.  Business
and professional workers almost always get a bonus, even in a bad
economy.  Working classes have no perks like business phones or long
lunch hours-they punch a clock.


> Her salary 'doubled'.  Now, she's not making the big bucks or 
> anything , like with 'real ' bankers.  Still, she has not yet 
> finished her undergraduate studies (she transferred to ASU from Texas
>  where she lost her basketball scholarship, after an injury--she's 
> 6') and she just went from making less than $24,000 to her new salry 
> of $48,000.  Almost exactly doubling her salary.  At the same time, 
> in the same town, I can get unskilled labor that will bust their 
> butts for $5 to $7 per hour, that would have cost me at least $10 r 
> $12 per hour, not even a year ago.  I can get 'skilled' labor, today,
>  for the same $10 or $12 per hour that I would have paid for 
> 'unskilled' labor , less than a year ago.  My bank employee friend is
>  22 y.o., and making almost $50,000, with great benefits with her 
> promotion;  while a 40 y.o. experienced carpenter is only getting $10
>  per hour with no benefits for hard labor  skilled work, and he can't
>  find enough work to support his family.  Something will have to 
> give, if things continue like this.


You know Bob, the first thing you said was that she was a young girl
that you chatted and flirted with.  Do you not think this might have
anything to do with her salary doubling at the age of 22, before she
even finishes school?
In my last two jobs, I have been subjected to discrimination and
harassment.  At the grocery store, the owner told the manager than when
he walked through the store, he did not want to see me, a 40 year old
woman, he wanted to see a pretty young thing whose butt he wanted to
slap as he walked by.  More recently, in my last job, I made less than
half of my male co-workers doing the same do.
Point is, in a good economy, it is easy to be inclusive and treat people
fairly.  In a bad economy, all kinds of crap happens.
Your last comparison between the bank employee and the carpenter reminds
me of James' post about real vs. imaginary money.  He did not use those
words, but he was talking about value and paper value vs. actual value.
IMO, the actual value guy is the carpenter, the skilled laborer.  He can
produce something related to food, clothing, or shelter, namely shelter.
IMO, the bank employee has a 'paper' job, and yet, she is the one who is
rewarded handsomely.
It is all screwed up Bob, and it has been for quite some time.  It is
not that it is going to happen, it already has happened and it has been
that way for a while.  Your story below proves my point. That is why so
many "working class" people are totally fed up in this country and voted
for change in the way things are done.

> I went to a popular local breakfast hangout yesterday, a mid-priced 
> place, an omelet breakfast with tip will run about $15.  The place 
> was packed as usual.  People in their Ralph Lauren and fancy 
> handbags, plenty of German and better Japanes cars in the parking 
> lot.  .  Everything seemed very normal.  But, I wonder what it was 
> like at McDonalds with their dollar menu.  Were people buying one 
> less egg mcmuffin?  If what I am seeing, and fearing is correct, this
>  will change society.  Working people won't, and shouldn't, in my 
> opinion, put up with this for long.

Workers in my class would not have had breakfast for $15, or even $10.
Workers in my class would either have no breakfast, or maybe a muffin or
toast with some coffee.  If they did go to McDonalds, they would have a
Mcmuffin.  To answer the question, fast food places like MickeyD's have
seen an upturn in business, due to the some people 'cutting back' from
their more usual places and 'returning' to fast food.  This will mean
more minimum wage jobs available, more burger flipping jobs for the
carpenters to learn.

> What I'm afraid will happen, though, is that the middle class -- not
>  the very comfortable, and certainly not the rich -- will bear the 
> brunt of the anger of the dis-enfranchised working class.

I have come to believe that there is no such thing as the middle class
anymore. I don't know when it disappeared, but I don't see it.   Twenty
five years ago, I would say that we were middle class, dead middle, but
we have dropped back and society would now label me as lower
class/working poor/lower middle-somewhere in there.  Your banking friend
makes more than we do...  Some folks in the old neighborhood moved up
into a 'business class', the people you probably consider the middle
class..those making maybe 75-125K or so.  I don't know how you or
society defines these things.  IMO, someone who makes 100K a year is not
 middle class.  At best I would call that upper middle.

As to who bears the brunt, that is anyone's guess.  I think for the most
part that the working class is too beaten down to do anything.

 Oh, sure, a few men who make eight and nine figure
> salries have vounteered to work for a buck this year, but, they'll 
> make that back , have no fear.  Why was there no outcry for the white
>  collar salaried employee's salaries like there was for the blue 
> collar workers wages?

????  Because those white collared salaried employees can still actually
make a living?  Because they still get their Christmas bonuses, their
401k matching?
In my last job, the ones who lost out were the little guys.  The mid
level people raked in...got more hours and more money taking over jobs
that had been done by people 'under them'.



> One of my neighbors is just finishing extensive interior renovations
>  on his house, so I walked down yesterday to look at his new custom 
> made knotty alder cabinets and his front entrance door that cost more
>  than an excellent used car, and his new 21 seer (?) cooling system.
>  I aske dhim what in the world he was spending so much for, in this 
> economy.  he's a bit older than me and semi-retired.  he said , well
>  he already had planned to do this , over a year ago (he re-married 
> about that time) and he say, "hey, I'm getting excellent labor 
> ,cheaper than I've seen it in ages".  The problem is he expects to 
> move to his retiremnet home , up around, Sedona -- in five years.  He
>  thinks that the economy will have completely recovered and he'll be
>  able to recouop the approx. $200,000 of renovations in five years. I
>  think he is way off on his timing.

We are very out of touch with each other, Bob.  Your post might as well
be written in Chinese.
Extensive interior renovations that were done by hired labor, yet you
said "one of my neighbors is finishing" like the guy did the work himself.
The words 'custom made' implied 'hired out', too.
New front door, AC system
All from a 'semi-retired' guy?

I can't think of anyone on my road or in my neighborhood-really in my
town, that could afford to do all of those things right now.  Even my
best friend couldn't do it.  You live in a totally different world,
feels like a different planet, than I do.

> He'll be alright, either way; just worth less, if I'm right.  But, 
> people who build things or repair things or service things or servive
>  the people who build and repair; they are looking at very bleak 
> times ahead.  A man who swings a hammer or turns a wrench or lays 
> pipe is going to work harder for less income, 'when' he can find 
> work.

Again, this is going on all over, and has been.  Ron still works the 10+
hours a day that he used to work 20 years ago, and he makes about 35% of
what he used to make.  This year we will make about 40% less than last
year, even with me working more than half the year.
But we aren't worried, Bob, because there will soon be lots of low
income burger flipping jobs.<G>
My friend A took me shopping and to lunch last week.  I may have already
mentioned it here(that kind of thing is a big deal and treat in my
life).  She mentioned her dh's Christmas bonus, and I said It is nice
that you get one..oh, she said, everyone at XXX gets a bonus, a good
one, too.  I said, everyone??? Even the guys out in the plant, the
forklift drivers and shippers and such?  Well no, of course, her
'everyone' included only the office people, the white collars...
I mentioned that her dh was lucky in that he had job security, and since
his company was doing okay, I wondered how a depressed economy might
affect her.  Her response was that they would have to cut back on buying
toys(ATV's and such) and maybe take fewer trips or closer to home trips.
 They might not get their paid to Europe this year. <Sigh>  This is my
best friend in my real life.  Even she though, is not replacing the
front door of her house or making extensive renovations with hired
labor.  But now, maybe you see why I rely on you guys for support.

Bob, watch that show Secret Millionaire....those Millionaires are
peeking into my world.  When you make posts like this one, I often feel
like you are one of those millionaires who has no clue as to how the
rest of the population, not just homesteaders, live.  I really don't
mean that to be as harsh as it sounds, but I just wanted you to know how
out of touch with the 'populous' I think you are.  Perhaps Phoenix is
doing better than other parts of the country, I dunno.

Bev


--
The true significance of Sacajawea's involvement in the Lewis & Clark
expedition is that it was the first documented trip in history where men
asked a woman for directions and followed them, allowing them to arrive
at their destination.