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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] Ex 6:6 hiphil imperative 'bring'

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  • From: Chris Watts <dekruidnootjes AT eircom.net>
  • To: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ex 6:6 hiphil imperative 'bring'
  • Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 17:26:24 +0100

Karl I am relieved you said that. I came to a conclusion just about a month ago that that these pronounciations merely reflected one moment in one time. The grammar books and commentaries treat every point as though it were an infallible static pronounciation set since the foundation of the world! And that deviations have to be explained grammatically as long as that vowel point stays there. I came to an uneasy conclusion myself that these points are more guidelines rather than set in stone. So what if I pronounce a tsere like a seghol or a patach like a chametz? It does not matter one bit, because language is fluid, and there coexists quite happily different pronounciations within a single language. Biblical hebrew is not taught in any of the books like this, in fact they way they go on and on about a single solitary vowel and the necessity to lengthen this because that is in pause and that affects the short vowel which now dissappears and it takes half a page to explain became burdensome claptrap quite honestly. It has been many years before I came to this realisation and must say that much of the stress has gone from previous years. This is why I posted the question some time ago about the pronounciation of Jerusalem when there was an artificial hireq placed at the end to form a dual so that one says Yerushalyim instead of Yerushalem, which the latter makes for better meaning anyway. I do not question that this was how it was pronounced when the hebrew grammarians pointed it in their day, but I do not believe that this was how it was originally pronounced at the time when the scribes were composing and writing the various books. (Apart from a couple of instances if I remember correctly). I also learned from a rabbi (and this was an eye opener) that the vowel pointing does not even reflect everyday pronounciation even at he time of the masoretes, it is for the most part a liturgical device, a musical device and poetic device. So Yerushalyim is great when you sing it, but yerushalem kind of ends the rythmic feel too abruptly in music. Now the vowel pointing makes more sense for when I hit a seghol and think hey, that does not sound right, it feels awkward on my lips and clumsy.......

So back to the Hiphil. How would a hiphil imperative be translated here anyway, I simply am not knowledgeable enough to be able to do this. I can not even guess at it. In essence how can any hiphil be an imperative when the hiphil relects a causative aspect in a sentence? (realising that some hiphils are not strictly causation). how can you cause something in an imperative fashion, does not make sense at all.

Chris Watts
Ireland

Chris Watts
Ireland



On 9 Jul 2013, at 16:36, K Randolph wrote:

Chris:

You can’t trust the Masoretic points.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Chris Watts <dekruidnootjes AT eircom.net>wrote:

Hallo Pere, well firstly I recognised that the heh holem vav is
indicative of an imperative and the heh a hiphil, then the tsere
under the tsadi instead of a hireq. I was surprised so I checked B.
Davidsons's hebrew analytical lexicon and there is written this word
idicating it as an imperative hiphil? Also I checked my personal
grammar under the assumption that this verb would qualify as a Pe Vav/
Pe Yod.


The unpointed consonantal text can be read either as a hiphil or hophal
first person singular verb. As hiphil it has the reading “I cause to exit”,
i.e. bring out, which best fits the context.

If this is pointed as an imperative, then you need to be able to step out
and say that this doesn’t make sense, how else could it have been pointed
to make sense? Then go with that.


Chris Watts
Ireland


Karl W. Randolph.





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