Biblical Hebrew Forum

[K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>]

Pere:

On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com> wrote:

> Remark, Karl:
> In a general way the N of suffix -NW that refers to the 3rd person
> singular masculine has dagesh. This is the so called "energic nun".
> You pay little attention to the masoretic pointing, but........  many
> times it is quite useful!
>

True, I pay no attention to the Masoretic points.

The Bible that I usually read uses a font based on the Gezar Calendar, a
font that did not have points, therefore unable to show points. This is
also the Bible that I find most useful in searching unusual forms in Tanakh
for discussion.

>
> The fact that here and there mistakes appear in the pointing does not
> mean  or imply that points are always mistaken!
>

Of course not. As I have repeatedly stated, the vast majority are correct
for meaning, but there is no question that the points do not reflect
Biblical era pronunciation. After all, they were not invented until a
thousand years after Hebrew ceased being the common language of the people
spoken in the market and at the hearth. Therefore, the probability that
they reproduce Biblical era pronunciation is so slight as to be nil.

>
> Compare these two patterns:
>
> http://www.oham.net/out/PS-t/PS-t0943.html
> and
> http://www.oham.net/out/PS-t/PS-t0944.html
>
> They are nearly identical! Their main difference is just the dagesh in the
> N (and the consequent reduction of the preceding vowel: tsere > segol).
>
> Remark: if in the page of pattern PS-t0944 you try to take a look on the
> variant PS-t0625 by clicking on the corresponding link and a page appears
> saying that you'd pay per view, click on «Next» in the upper right corner
> of this page and the free page will open.
>

Because the points are sometimes wrong as far as meaning is concerned, I
find it preferable to rely on context and function to realize the meaning
of a sentence than to rely on untrustworthy points.

>
> Regards
>
> Pere Porta
> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Northeastern Spain)
>

Karl W. Randolph.

>
> 2012/5/5 K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
>
>> Pere:
>>
>>  Reasons for some of my questions:
>>
>>
>> The -NW suffix can be used even on the same verb for the first person
>> plural, and the third person masculine singular. E.g. יאכלנו Y)KLNW in
>> Numbers 11:4, 18 “make us eat” but in Numbers 18:13 “he should eat it”. Or
>> תאכלנו T)KLNW “you should eat it” Numbers 18:10 while “it (fire) eats us”
>> in Deuteronomy 5:25.
>>
>>
>> The -HW suffix is found on lamed he verbs, e.g. ויבזהו YBZHW 1 Samuel
>> 17:42 “he had disdain, contempt for him”, while in 1 Samuel 10:27 merely is
>> a plural “they disdained”.
>>
>>
>> So far I have not found any verbs that can use both suffixes, rather it
>> seems that those verbs that use the -NW suffix do not use the -HW suffix,
>> and visa versa. So far I have not found a pattern to explain the 
>> difference.
>>
>>
>> One idea I had is that maybe the choice of which suffix to use was
>> connected to the form of the verb, but נמכרנו NMKRNW Genesis 37:27 and
>> תזכרנו TZKRNW Psalm 8:4 take the -NW suffix, while יתארהו YT)RHW Isaiah
>> 44:13 (also another example of a lamed he verb taking a -HW suffix יעשהו
>> Y(%HW) and ישרהו Y$MRHW Psalm 41:3 (yet another example of a lamed he verb
>> taking the -HW suffix, יחיהו YXYHW) which seems to argue against the form
>> (in this case the final resh) indicating which suffix to use.
>>
>>
>> After writing the above, I found an example of a verb that takes both the
>> -HW and -NW suffixes to refer to a third person singular masculine object:
>> ראה R)H in Psalm 91:16 אראהו )R)HW, Isaiah 53:2 נראהו NR)HW, many other
>> examples, while Genesis 45:28 ואראנו )R)NW, also Numbers 23:9, 24:17,
>> Jeremiah 23:24, Micah 7:15 and other examples.
>>
>>
>> Oy veh! This study instead of answering my questions, has only raised
>> more!
>>
>>
>> Karl W. Randolph.
>>
>>