Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com>]

Dear Kenneth,

I'm not claiming that statistics make a proof. They are guides; they show
the main lines....  but exceptions exist, of course.

In cases like this one of Ps 22:25 it is good to compare with LXX (do you
know Greek?) or with the Latin Vulgate, for instance, in order to verify how
ancient translators understood a given text (word, sentence...). This can be
often (not always) helpful.


Pere Porta
(Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)





2011/4/12 kenneth greifer <greifer AT hotmail.com>

> Pere,
>
> I am not saying that "enut" can't mean "affliction" in Psalm 22:25. I am
> just saying that a word that is used only once might have been misunderstood
> and the meaning guessed by people thousands of years ago. I am not sure if
> statistics like how many times infinitives are used with lamed in the front
> or not should be used as proof because just like a word can occur once, an
> infinitive of a verb might be used without a lamed once. If you can accept
> the idea that a noun can exist with just one example, then you should
> probably be able to accept the possibility that a form of a verb can exist
> just once also. I don't consider this to be proof, but it sounds like my
> explanation could be a rare use of a word possibly. If you use statistics as
> proof, then what happens to the rare things that might also exist?
>
> Kenneth Greifer
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 05:36:05 +0200
>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Psalm 22 answering quotes
> From: pporta7 AT gmail.com
> To: greifer AT hotmail.com
> CC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>
> Kenneth,
>
> 1. In a general way, Infinitives that come immediately after a verb have
> preposition 'l' (lamed) preceding them.
> And so, we find 549 cases thereof in the Bible: beginning in Gn 3:24 and
> ending in Zec 14:19.
> True that we find 96 cases where no preposition lamed precedes the
> infinitive.
> But the common way is with preposition "lamed".
> It is true that verb "shiqets", detest, has no Infinitive following it in
> the biblical text. But the usual pattern for "verb + infinitive"  is "verb +
> l (lamed) + infinitive".
> So it is logical that in our verse it will be the same thing. Namely: if it
> meant "to answer" we would find "la'anot".
>
> 2. "enut" is here a feminine noun and NOT a verb. The fact that this noun
> is used once in the Bible does not imply that it does not exist (as a noun).
> Pattern [two root consonants + ut] for a (feminine) noun is found here and
> there in the Bible:
>
> -"dmut", image, form (Is 40:18)
> -"edut", testimony (Ps 60:2)
> -"galut", exile (Is 20:4)
>
> and so, "enut", affliction (Ps 22:25)
>
> Also we find, to reinforce this, the pattern [three root consonants +
> ut] again for feminine nouns:
>
> -"siklut", stupidity (Ec 10:13)
> -"malkut", royalty (1Ch 29:25)
>
> And today Israeli Hebrew uses this pattern widely: dozens and dozens of
> nouns are shaped fitting it.
>
> Does all this make an answer to your question?
>
> Kind regards from
>
> Pere Porta
> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
>
>
>
> 2011/4/11 kenneth greifer <greifer AT hotmail.com>
>
> Pere,
>
> Are you sure Psalm 22:25 can't say "You did not hate answering an afflicted
> one" instead of "You did not hate *to* answer an afflicted one"? Genesis
> 45:3 uses the verb "to be able" yud kaf lamed which might need the word "to"
> after it before infinitives. Maybe you don't need "to" before the infinitive
> of the verb "to answer." Do you always need "to" in front of infinitives?
>
> How do you know there is a noun "affliction" spelled ayin nun vav tav if it
> is only used once in Psalm 22:25? There is a word spelled ayin nun vav hay
> that is translated "humility" in Proverbs 15:33 and Proverbs 18:12. Also,
> Psalm 18:36 and 2 Samuel 22:36 have the word translated "humility", but I
> think it might say "Your answering (or Your humility) made me great" because
> in Psalm 18:4 and 18:7 it says David called on G-d to help him, so maybe G-d
> answered him.
>
> Kenneth Greifer
>  ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:13:21 +0200
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Psalm 22 answering quotes
> From: pporta7 AT gmail.com
> To: greifer AT hotmail.com
> CC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>
>
> Kenneth,
>
> the last word in Ps 22:22 means "You answered me" and not "answer me!".
> In Jb 10:9 we have the parallel "asitani", you made me.
> In my opinion there is no reason to translate 'anitani' for an Imperative.
> Now, in Ps 22:25 'enut" is a noun (affliction) and not a verb (to answer).
> The usual way to mean "You did not detest answering an afflicted one" is
> using the Infinitive 'la'anot' ------- look at Gn 45:3.
>
> Heartly,
>
> Pere Porta
> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
>
> 2011/4/10 kenneth greifer <greifer AT hotmail.com>
>
>
> Psalm 22:22 seems to say "...You answered me", but most translations say
> "answer me" with the command form. Psalm 22:25 says "You did not hate the
> affliction (afflicting?) an afflicted one", but it could say "You did not
> hate answering an afflicted one". It sounds like G-d answered the cry of the
> person in the from Psalm 22:2-3, but the translations make it sound like he
> was not answered. Am I misunderstanding the psalm?
>
> Kenneth Greifer
>
> "Real intellectuals can discuss any subject, but pseudo-intellectual snobs
> only discuss things they agree with." (I noticed many b-hebrew members have
> little sayings under their names, so I came up with this one. I wonder if
> that is allowed or do you have to quote someone else?)
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>
> --
> Pere Porta
>
>
>
>
> --
> Pere Porta
>
>


-- 
Pere Porta