Biblical Hebrew Forum

[kenneth greifer <greifer AT hotmail.com>]

Pere,
 
I am not saying that "enut" can't mean "affliction" in Psalm 22:25. I am just 
saying that a word that is used only once might have been misunderstood and 
the meaning guessed by people thousands of years ago. I am not sure if 
statistics like how many times infinitives are used with lamed in the front 
or not should be used as proof because just like a word can occur once, an 
infinitive of a verb might be used without a lamed once. If you can accept 
the idea that a noun can exist with just one example, then you should 
probably be able to accept the possibility that a form of a verb can exist 
just once also. I don't consider this to be proof, but it sounds like my 
explanation could be a rare use of a word possibly. If you use statistics as 
proof, then what happens to the rare things that might also exist?
 
Kenneth Greifer 
 


Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 05:36:05 +0200
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Psalm 22 answering quotes
From: pporta7 AT gmail.com
To: greifer AT hotmail.com
CC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org


Kenneth,
 
1. In a general way, Infinitives that come immediately after a verb have 
preposition 'l' (lamed) preceding them. 
And so, we find 549 cases thereof in the Bible: beginning in Gn 3:24 and 
ending in Zec 14:19. 
True that we find 96 cases where no preposition lamed precedes the 
infinitive. 
But the common way is with preposition "lamed".
It is true that verb "shiqets", detest, has no Infinitive following it in the 
biblical text. But the usual pattern for "verb + infinitive"  is "verb + l 
(lamed) + infinitive".
So it is logical that in our verse it will be the same thing. Namely: if it 
meant "to answer" we would find "la'anot". 
 
2. "enut" is here a feminine noun and NOT a verb. The fact that this noun is 
used once in the Bible does not imply that it does not exist (as a noun).
Pattern [two root consonants + ut] for a (feminine) noun is found here and 
there in the Bible:
 
-"dmut", image, form (Is 40:18)
-"edut", testimony (Ps 60:2)
-"galut", exile (Is 20:4)
 
and so, "enut", affliction (Ps 22:25)
 
Also we find, to reinforce this, the pattern [three root consonants + ut] 
again for feminine nouns: 
 
-"siklut", stupidity (Ec 10:13)
-"malkut", royalty (1Ch 29:25)

And today Israeli Hebrew uses this pattern widely: dozens and dozens of nouns 
are shaped fitting it. 
 
Does all this make an answer to your question?
 
Kind regards from
 
Pere Porta
(Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
 

 
2011/4/11 kenneth greifer <greifer AT hotmail.com>


Pere,
 
Are you sure Psalm 22:25 can't say "You did not hate answering an afflicted 
one" instead of "You did not hate to answer an afflicted one"? Genesis 45:3 
uses the verb "to be able" yud kaf lamed which might need the word "to" after 
it before infinitives. Maybe you don't need "to" before the infinitive of the 
verb "to answer." Do you always need "to" in front of infinitives?
 
How do you know there is a noun "affliction" spelled ayin nun vav tav if it 
is only used once in Psalm 22:25? There is a word spelled ayin nun vav hay 
that is translated "humility" in Proverbs 15:33 and Proverbs 18:12. Also, 
Psalm 18:36 and 2 Samuel 22:36 have the word translated "humility", but I 
think it might say "Your answering (or Your humility) made me great" because 
in Psalm 18:4 and 18:7 it says David called on G-d to help him, so maybe G-d 
answered him.
 
Kenneth Greifer



Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:13:21 +0200
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Psalm 22 answering quotes
From: pporta7 AT gmail.com
To: greifer AT hotmail.com
CC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org





Kenneth,
 
the last word in Ps 22:22 means "You answered me" and not "answer me!".
In Jb 10:9 we have the parallel "asitani", you made me. 
In my opinion there is no reason to translate 'anitani' for an Imperative. 
Now, in Ps 22:25 'enut" is a noun (affliction) and not a verb (to answer).
The usual way to mean "You did not detest answering an afflicted one" is 
using the Infinitive 'la'anot' ------- look at Gn 45:3.
 
Heartly,
 
Pere Porta
(Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)


2011/4/10 kenneth greifer <greifer AT hotmail.com>


Psalm 22:22 seems to say "...You answered me", but most translations say 
"answer me" with the command form. Psalm 22:25 says "You did not hate the 
affliction (afflicting?) an afflicted one", but it could say "You did not 
hate answering an afflicted one". It sounds like G-d answered the cry of the 
person in the from Psalm 22:2-3, but the translations make it sound like he 
was not answered. Am I misunderstanding the psalm?

Kenneth Greifer

"Real intellectuals can discuss any subject, but pseudo-intellectual snobs 
only discuss things they agree with." (I noticed many b-hebrew members have 
little sayings under their names, so I came up with this one. I wonder if 
that is allowed or do you have to quote someone else?)
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-- 
Pere Porta



-- 
Pere Porta