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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] verb form choice

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  • From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
  • To: fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] verb form choice
  • Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 16:11:09 -0500

It is not clear to me what you mean by or why you insist on "vocalization". Nowadays, as soon as we see a dot in the Hebrew letter bet we instinctively vocalize it as an English B, otherwise, we vocalize it as the English V, to wit: BA-U, yet, U-VA-U. I think that this change of sound in the presence of a dagesh is a mere historical coincidence, that came now to bedevil the Hebrew language. We can safely ignore it here.
In Deu. 1:28 it is, indeed, VA-RAM, translated as "and ('and' being from the Latin ante, 'opposite', and of the same sense as 'end') taller". It stands to reason that this attached VA used to be a separate word with a meaning of its own within the Hebrew language. What is it, then? I think it is BA (read it VA) in disguise, and meaning 'be' in the sense of 'is' or 'are', namely: "AM GADOL (is) RAM from us".

Isaac Fried, Boston University


On Jan 30, 2011, at 11:48 AM, fred burlingame wrote:

Hello Isaac:

Thanks for your comments.

Perhaps a further example, will illustrate my lack of understanding of your point.

In genesis 6:13, we have participle בא vocalized as "bah."

In deuteronomy 1:28, we have participle (plus prefixed conjunction) ורם vocalized as "vah-ram."

Are you saying, that "vah-ram" should properly be vocalized "bah- ram?" Or that that the original pronunciation of "vah-ram" was "bah- ram?"

Because "bah" on one hand; and "vah" or "wah" on the other, sound significantly different to me.
regards,

fred burlingame
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 6:27 AM, Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu> wrote:
BA and WA sound nowadays exactly the same (forget the confusing dagesh), but are used alternatively to create a visual (VISUAL!) distinction between words that sound the same and have essentially the same core meaning. As I said before, no one would think of registering (REGISTERING!) his daughter's name as ZIYB-AH זיבה, but ZIYW-AH זיוה (which sounds exactly the same) is very fine.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Jan 30, 2011, at 2:01 AM, fred burlingame wrote:

Hello Isaac:

Thanks for your comments.

I appreciate your analysis.

I don't understand however, the visual trick that moves the letter vocalized as "bet" and appearing as ב into the letter vocalized as "waw" and appearing as ו . I suppose that the sounds "BA" and "WA" could be mistaken for one another. I also understand that you refer to this process more precisely as waw becoming a variant of bet.


regards,

fred burlingame


On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu> wrote:
The letter B is the root of BA, 'come', which is 'to be' (BA it is not a process but the state of being present). So, WAYIGA$ sounds to me BA)-HIY)-GA$, which is exactly what it is. Writing W for B is just a visual trick to momentarily blind us. The word ZIYB-AH, 'pus' is disgusting, but ZIYW-AH, 'shine, emit electromagnetic pus', is a cute Hebrew girl's name.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Jan 29, 2011, at 11:49 PM, fred burlingame wrote:

Hello Isaac;

That was a clever turn of a phrase.

How do you reach the conclusion that the root, single letter B, means basically "come, be, exist, have substance?" By reasoning back from the actual usages of the descendant or child, two and three letter roots?

Does your paragraph "2" below imply a past tense for the "qatal" form, subject to usage exceptions?

Very interesting that the ancient hebrew language enjoyed more flexibility than the modern language. It sounds like the evolution of languages mirrors the evolution of governments ... more and more rules.

regards,

fred burlingame

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu> wrote:
1. Grammaticalization made the language ever more formal and rigid, yet, WA-YI-$LAX essentially means (it come to pass that)- (he)-(send).
2, "qatal' is just short for he-qatal-him, the past being the "natural" tense for an act.
3. I don't give a hoot for the opinion of "mainstream" educators, book sellers and academics. They are to me the ox snugly following the rut.
4. The letter B is the root of BA, 'come, be, exist, have substance'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University











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