Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Danny <therealsmint AT gmail.com>]

Steve, perhaps I misunderstand this whole argument about the 'royal we', but
I can think of several instances of the plural being used to show importance
and stress. What do you make of 1 Kings 1:43 and later in 47 'Adoneinu
ha'melekh David himlikh et sholomo' -- Our lord David has made Solomon King
- adoneinu here is plural, surely?

Heb: אֲדֹנֵינוּ הַמֶּלֶךְ־דָּוִד הִמְלִיךְ אֶת־שְׁלֹמֹה

There are a few more instances of this intensive plural (nb the behemoth in
Job 40) but here's a nice clean example of it used to describe a King.

Yours,

Danny Kessler
Balliol College,
Oxford


2009/12/18 Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>

>
>
>
> > From: Pere Porta
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:04 AM
> > To: steve AT voiceinwilderness.info
> > Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] adonai "my Lord" or "the Lord"
> >
> >  [Steve Miller] Pere, thanks for sharing that. I did not know it. Yes, I
> > agree. Translating it as "Lords" would not make sense.
> >
> > (SM) I still have the question about "my". The yod suffix makes it "my
> > Lord"
> > rather than just "Lord". The yod was not added by the Masoretes. Why then
> > is
> > it not always translated "my Lord"? It seems to me that "my Lord" would
> > fit
> > just about all uses. But it is only translated "my Lord" in few places,
> > like
> > in Ps 16:2 where the context almost demands it. Even the LXX rarely
> > translates it as "my Lord".
> >
> > But if the word was written, adoni, with a chirik instead of a kamatz
> > under
> > the nun, then it would be consistently translated, my lord.
>
> > (PP)
> >
> > "adoni" appears, methinks, 195 times in the Bible. Maybe you should check
> > every one of these items (I haven't the time to do it now).
> > But in a general way, as I said, "adoni" is for humans while "adonay" is
> > for
> > God ---> plural of majesty.
> > You have Gn 24:27, where "adoni" is found three times and every time it
> > concern a human.
> > In Gn 18:3 we have "adonay" addressed to an individual -this "individual"
> > is
> > God either clearly understood or in the writer's background thought-
> while
> > in a general way, as I said, this is used to address God -- plural of
> > Majesty.  But strictly speaking and from a grammar viewpoint "adonay"
> > means
> > "my lords", even humans -- look at Gn 19:2,4.
> > It is something like in Gn 1:26,3 where God speaks in the plural:
> > NA(.A&EH,
> > "let us make". But this does not mean that God considers himself a plural
> > (in fact I think some christians thought that this verse pointed out to a
> > "trinity" of persons within God): this is again a plural of Majesty.
> > I repeat again, Steve: this is the same thing as it happens with today
> > Kings, the Pope... "We, Us", referring to themselves... Every king, the
> > Pope
> > is an indivual and not a group or collective ---- but they speak using
> the
> > plural "We", "Us" ----> plural of Majesty.
> >
> > [Beside this, be aware that some, several inconsistencies are found in
> the
> > Hebrew Bible...]
> >
> > Do you feel I'm right?
> >
> > Pere Porta
> > (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
>
> [Steve Miller] Pere,
> >From what you had explained previously, I understood that the Masoretes
> voweled adoni to refer to a human or angel lord and adonai to refer to God.
> So I would expect practically all uses of adoni to refer persons whom the
> Masoretes understood were angels or men.
> I can see why. In the synagogue the people davening would be reading the
> Bible in Hebrew as fast as they could, and they would bow their heads every
> time they read the name of God. They wouldn't want to mistakenly bow their
> head to a man or an angel. Elohim can refer to angels or a human judge
> also,
> but the usage is rare.
>
> If Gen 1:26 was a "royal we", then I would expect to find this "royal we"
> somewhere else in the Bible referring to royalty. If no such "royal we"
> exists in the Bible, then I consider this proof that the "royal we"
> interpretation of Gen 1:26 is wrong. I would not try to use traditions of
> modern gentile kings and popes to explain the Bible, but use the Bible
> itself. It may be that the Victorian kings and popes got their tradition
> from Gen 1:26.
>
> Sincerely,
> -Steve Miller
> Detroit
> www.voiceInWilderness.info
> They shall come, and they shall declare
> to a people to be born,
> reveal His righteousness.
> This deed which the Lord has done
> they'll retell to everyone
> that He may all peoples bless. (Psalm 22:31)
>
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