Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk AT concentric.net>]

NOTHING pre-existed.

Shoshanna Walker


The primeval waters pre-exist.  No statement is made of their 
creation.  They show the same elements as are found in Egyptian 
primeval waters.  Thus, Genesis 1 is not a beginning of the 
universe.  It is the beginning of the formation of creation out of 
chaos just as we have in Egyptian cosmology.  You have a tendency to 
stray from a simple point and to get lost in technicalities.


Lloyd Barré



--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com, "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 12:52 AM


Lloyd,

I will try to explain what I mean again. You said that B should be 
translated as temporal in Gen 1:1, and I wholly agree.

First, let's consider again the traditional translation "In the 
beginning....". You asserted that this is a locative translation of 
B. That is simply not true. The preposition "in" can be either 
locative or temporal, depending on whether its object is a location 
("in the room") or a time reference ("in the second year of his 
reign"). It is exactly the same with, for instance, the preposition 
"at": it may be locative ("at the big tree") or temporal ("at that 
moment"). In Gen 1:1, the object of the preposition is a time 
reference ("beginning"), so the context clearly obliges us to read it 
as a temporal "in", i.e. "during the time of the beginning, God 
created...". We could also use "At the beginning, God created...", 
and any native English speaker will immediately interpret the 
preposition as a temporal "at (the time of)".

Now, let's consider your translation "As a beginning, elohim 
created...". In this usage, "as" is not temporal in meaning - it does 
not mean "during the time of" here. Rather, it means something like 
"being" or maybe "to function as". Roughly speaking, the entire 
sentence (in your translation) would have the sense: "Elohim created 
the heavens and the earth - this constituted a first step [to his 
work??]"

If the phrase "as a beginning" does have a temporal sense, that is 
entirely due to the temporal word "beginning". If we change it, the 
non-temporal nature of "as" becomes clear; for instance, "As a show 
of his power, elohim created the heavens and the earth". Same sense 
of "as", but an entirely atemporal phrase.

Incidentally, your translation also changes the meaning of 
"beginning" from an absolute time period to something like "a first 
step" (what was the next one??).

Summary: If B is a temporal preposition, "In the beginning" is a 
possible translation, but "As a beginning" is not.

Am I being clear?? If not, I'll have to give up... :)

Stephen Shead
Santiago, Chile


2009/2/7 LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>





Why is "as a beginning . . ." a bad translation?


Lloyd Barré




--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:


From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com, "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 12:36 AM





Lloyd,

I'm a little confused! If I didn't make myself clear before, I do not 
agree with your translation of BR)$T in Gen 1:1. Yes, I agree that B 
has a temporal sense here. But for that reason, "as a beginning, 
elohim created..." is a bad translation: "as" (in that context) is 
not a temporal preposition at all. On the other hand, "in the 
beginning" is a temporal translation of B, and is perfectly adequate. 
"In the beginning" is *not* a locative translation of B.

Stephen Shead
Santiago, Chile


2009/2/6 LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>





Thank you.  I am glad you took my meaning.  Do you agree?


Lloyd Barré



--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org, l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 1:41 PM





Lloyd,

You wrote:
'Also, in Genesis 1, the first preposition, b, should be translated 
as temporal rather than locative as is so commonly done.  Thus, I 
would interpret, "as a beginning, elohim created . . , not "in the 
beginning . . ."'

This is a miniscule point, but I think you have it the wrong way 
around: "in the beginning" is a temporal translation of B, not a 
locative one, whereas your translation doesn't render B either 
temporally or locatively.

Perhaps your confusion is with the word "in", whose most "basic" 
meaning (shall we say) is a locative one. But in line with the human 
propensity to interpret temporal experience by analogy with spatial 
experience, it also has a very common and normal temporal sense 
("during the time of"). So "in the kitchen" uses the locative sense 
of "in", whereas "in the 16th century" uses the temporal sense.

In the context of Gen 1:1, the preposition "in" in the phrase "in the 
beginning" establishes a temporal relationship between "the 
beginning" and "God created...".

But your translation does not render B temporally at all. The 
temporal bit in your translation is the substantive "beginning" 
itself - R)$T - but the prepositional relationship "as" is not 
temporal translation of B at all; it means something like "by way of".

Stephen Shead
Centro de Estudios Pastorales
Santiago, Chile


2009/2/5 <b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org>

From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: Ancient Bible History <AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>, 
b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:27:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [b-hebrew] Hebrew considerations
The interest in a consistent transliteration system for Hebrew leads 
me to think that this list, called "b-Hebrew," has an interest in the 
language.  Perhaps I could offer some help on this topic with a brief 
discussion of the verbal system:

There are seven basic stems in pairs of active and passive:

Qal -Niphal
Piel-Paul
Hiphil-Hophal
Hithpael is middle voice

There is an active and passive participle
qatol and qatul

Also the infinitive construct.

The stems are determined by reading the infix patterns.

There is also the perfect and imperfect aspects.  This is not tense 
but archionsart or type of action.  The action is conceived as either 
complete or incomplete and may be applied to any tense.

There is also waw consecutive with the first verb in a sequence 
determines the aspect of all verbs connected by the conjuction waw.

The issue that might be open to discussion is whether or not we are 
right to see the qtl and yqtl forms as communication aspect rather 
that time of action.

Also, in Genesis 1, the first preposition, b, should be translated as 
temporal rather than locative as is so commonly done.  Thus, I would 
interpret, "as a beginning, elohim created . . , not "in the 
beginning . . ."

Lloyd Barré
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre










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