Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>]

First, guilty as charged - I love little details, especially linguistic ones
:)  But in this case, I don't think I strayed at all from the "simple
point"; I was just responding to your assertion with a detailed rebuttal of
the translation. Sorry if it was too detailed for your tastes.

Secondly, I didn't mean to imply anything about the pre-existence or
otherwise of the primeval waters, as presented in Gen 1. I'm not sure where
you got that from in my response - nothing in my argument precludes either a
pre-existent view or an ex nihilo view. (Actually, if people want to
continue that debate, from a Hebrew grammar point of view, I'll listen in
with great interest - though I'd suggest a new thread.)

Stephen Shead
Santiago, Chile

2009/2/8 LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>

> The primeval waters pre-exist.  No statement is made of their creation.
> They show the same elements as are found in Egyptian primeval waters.  Thus,
> Genesis 1 is not a beginning of the universe.  It is the beginning of the
> formation of creation out of chaos just as we have in Egyptian cosmology.
> You have a tendency to stray from a simple point and to get lost in
> technicalities.
>
> Lloyd Barré
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/8/09, Stephen Shead 
> <srshead+bh AT gmail.com<srshead%2Bbh AT gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
> From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com <srshead%2Bbh AT gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
> To: l_barre AT yahoo.com, "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 12:52 AM
>
>
> Lloyd,
>
> I will try to explain what I mean again. You said that B should be
> translated as temporal in Gen 1:1, and I wholly agree.
>
> First, let's consider again the traditional translation "In the
> beginning...". You asserted that this is a locative translation of B. That
> is simply not true. The preposition "in" can be either locative or temporal,
> depending on whether its object is a location ("in the room") or a time
> reference ("in the second year of his reign"). It is exactly the same with,
> for instance, the preposition "at": it may be locative ("at the big tree")
> or temporal ("at that moment"). In Gen 1:1, the object of the preposition is
> a time reference ("beginning"), so the context clearly obliges us to read it
> as a temporal "in", i.e. "during the time of the beginning, God created...".
> We could also use "At the beginning, God created...", and any native English
> speaker will immediately interpret the preposition as a temporal "at (the
> time of)".
>
> Now, let's consider your translation "As a beginning, elohim created...".
> In this usage, "as" is not temporal in meaning - it does not mean "during
> the time of" here. Rather, it means something like "being" or maybe "to
> function as". Roughly speaking, the entire sentence (in your translation)
> would have the sense: "Elohim created the heavens and the earth - this
> constituted a first step [to his work??]"
>
> If the phrase "as a beginning" does have a temporal sense, that is entirely
> due to the temporal word "beginning". If we change it, the non-temporal
> nature of "as" becomes clear; for instance, "As a show of his power, elohim
> created the heavens and the earth". Same sense of "as", but an entirely
> atemporal phrase.
>
> Incidentally, your translation also changes the meaning of "beginning" from
> an absolute time period to something like "a first step" (what was the next
> one??).
>
> Summary: If B is a temporal preposition, "In the beginning" is a possible
> translation, but "As a beginning" is not.
>
> Am I being clear?? If not, I'll have to give up... :)
>
> Stephen Shead
> Santiago, Chile
>
> 2009/2/7 LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
>
>>   Why is "as a beginning . . ." a bad translation?
>>
>> Lloyd Barré
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On *Sat, 2/7/09, Stephen Shead 
>> <srshead+bh AT gmail.com<srshead%2Bbh AT gmail.com>
>> >* wrote:
>>
>> From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com <srshead%2Bbh AT gmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
>> To: l_barre AT yahoo.com, "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 12:36 AM
>>
>>
>> Lloyd,
>>
>> I'm a little confused! If I didn't make myself clear before, I do not
>> agree with your translation of BR)$T in Gen 1:1. Yes, I agree that B has a
>> temporal sense here. But for that reason, "as a beginning, elohim
>> created..." is a bad translation: "as" (in that context) is not a temporal
>> preposition at all. On the other hand, "in the beginning" is a temporal
>> translation of B, and is perfectly adequate. "In the beginning" is *not* a
>> locative translation of B.
>>
>> Stephen Shead
>> Santiago, Chile
>>
>> 2009/2/6 LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
>>
>>>   Thank you.  I am glad you took my meaning.  Do you agree?
>>>
>>> Lloyd Barré
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On *Fri, 2/6/09, Stephen Shead 
>>> <srshead+bh AT gmail.com<srshead%2Bbh AT gmail.com>
>>> >* wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com <srshead%2Bbh AT gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
>>> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org, l_barre AT yahoo.com
>>> Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 1:41 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> Lloyd,
>>>
>>> You wrote:
>>> 'Also, in Genesis 1, the first preposition, b, should be translated as
>>> temporal rather than locative as is so commonly done.  Thus, I would
>>> interpret, "as a beginning, elohim created . . , not "in the beginning . .
>>> ."'
>>>
>>> This is a miniscule point, but I think you have it the wrong way around:
>>> "in the beginning" *is* a temporal translation of B, not a locative one,
>>> whereas your translation doesn't render B either temporally or locatively.
>>>
>>> Perhaps your confusion is with the word "in", whose most "basic" meaning
>>> (shall we say) is a locative one. But in line with the human propensity to
>>> interpret temporal experience by analogy with spatial experience, it also
>>> has a very common and normal temporal sense ("during the time of"). So "in
>>> the kitchen" uses the locative sense of "in", whereas "in the 16th 
>>> century"
>>> uses the temporal sense.
>>>
>>> In the context of Gen 1:1, the preposition "in" in the phrase "in the
>>> beginning" establishes a temporal relationship between "the beginning" and
>>> "God created...".
>>>
>>> But your translation does not render B temporally at all. The temporal
>>> bit in your translation is the substantive "beginning" itself - R)$T - but
>>> the prepositional relationship "as" is not temporal translation of B at 
>>> all;
>>> it means something like "by way of".
>>>
>>> Stephen Shead
>>> Centro de Estudios Pastorales
>>> Santiago, Chile
>>>
>>> 2009/2/5 <b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>
>>>> From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
>>>> To: Ancient Bible History <AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>,
>>>> b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:27:03 -0800 (PST)
>>>> Subject: [b-hebrew] Hebrew considerations
>>>> The interest in a consistent transliteration system for Hebrew leads me
>>>> to think that this list, called "b-Hebrew," has an interest in the
>>>> language.  Perhaps I could offer some help on this topic with a brief
>>>> discussion of the verbal system:
>>>>
>>>> There are seven basic stems in pairs of active and passive:
>>>>
>>>> Qal -Niphal
>>>> Piel-Paul
>>>> Hiphil-Hophal
>>>> Hithpael is middle voice
>>>>
>>>> There is an active and passive participle
>>>> qatol and qatul
>>>>
>>>> Also the infinitive construct.
>>>>
>>>> The stems are determined by reading the infix patterns.
>>>>
>>>> There is also the perfect and imperfect aspects.  This is not tense but
>>>> archionsart or type of action.  The action is conceived as either 
>>>> complete
>>>> or incomplete and may be applied to any tense.
>>>>
>>>> There is also waw consecutive with the first verb in a sequence
>>>> determines the aspect of all verbs connected by the conjuction waw.
>>>>
>>>> The issue that might be open to discussion is whether or not we are
>>>> right to see the qtl and yqtl forms as communication aspect rather that 
>>>> time
>>>> of action.
>>>>
>>>> Also, in Genesis 1, the first preposition, b, should be translated as
>>>> temporal rather than locative as is so commonly done.  Thus, I would
>>>> interpret, "as a beginning, elohim created . . , not "in the beginning . 
>>>> .
>>>> ."
>>>>
>>>> Lloyd Barré
>>>> http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
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