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Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)

From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>, b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 11:10:35 -0800 (PST)

How can creation be ex nihilo when the waters and the darkeness and the
divine wind pre-exist? The "beginning" (rosh) is the beginning of the
creative acts where gods overcome formlessness (tohu) and emptiness (bohu).
The primeval waters are separated by the firmament, a solid, pounded out
crystal like thing that suspends the waters above from the waters below.
This type of cosmology is common in the ANE. Tiamat, the waters of chaos,is
also split in half like a shellfish to separate the celestial waters from the
terrestial waters.

Lloyd Barré, PhD

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com, "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 3:07 AM

First, guilty as charged - I love little details, especially linguistic ones
:) But in this case, I don't think I strayed at all from the "simple point";
I was just responding to your assertion with a detailed rebuttal of the
translation. Sorry if it was too detailed for your tastes.

Secondly, I didn't mean to imply anything about the pre-existence or
otherwise of the primeval waters, as presented in Gen 1. I'm not sure where
you got that from in my response - nothing in my argument precludes either a
pre-existent view or an ex nihilo view. (Actually, if people want to continue
that debate, from a Hebrew grammar point of view, I'll listen in with great
interest - though I'd suggest a new thread.)

Stephen Shead
Santiago, Chile

2009/2/8 LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>

The primeval waters pre-exist. No statement is made of their creation. They
show the same elements as are found in Egyptian primeval waters. Thus,
Genesis 1 is not a beginning of the universe. It is the beginning of the
formation of creation out of chaos just as we have in Egyptian cosmology.
You have a tendency to stray from a simple point and to get lost in
technicalities.

Lloyd Barré

--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com, "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 12:52 AM

Lloyd,

I will try to explain what I mean again. You said that B should be translated
as temporal in Gen 1:1, and I wholly agree.

First, let's consider again the traditional translation "In the
beginning....". You asserted that this is a locative translation of B. That
is simply not true. The preposition "in" can be either locative or temporal,
depending on whether its object is a location ("in the room") or a time
reference ("in the second year of his reign"). It is exactly the same with,
for instance, the preposition "at": it may be locative ("at the big tree") or
temporal ("at that moment"). In Gen 1:1, the object of the preposition is a
time reference ("beginning"), so the context clearly obliges us to read it as
a temporal "in", i.e. "during the time of the beginning, God created...". We
could also use "At the beginning, God created...", and any native English
speaker will immediately interpret the preposition as a temporal "at (the
time of)".

Now, let's consider your translation "As a beginning, elohim created...". In
this usage, "as" is not temporal in meaning - it does not mean "during the
time of" here. Rather, it means something like "being" or maybe "to function
as". Roughly speaking, the entire sentence (in your translation) would have
the sense: "Elohim created the heavens and the earth - this constituted a
first step [to his work??]"

If the phrase "as a beginning" does have a temporal sense, that is entirely
due to the temporal word "beginning". If we change it, the non-temporal
nature of "as" becomes clear; for instance, "As a show of his power, elohim
created the heavens and the earth". Same sense of "as", but an entirely
atemporal phrase.

Incidentally, your translation also changes the meaning of "beginning" from
an absolute time period to something like "a first step" (what was the next
one??).

Summary: If B is a temporal preposition, "In the beginning" is a possible
translation, but "As a beginning" is not.

Am I being clear?? If not, I'll have to give up... :)

Stephen Shead
Santiago, Chile

2009/2/7 LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>

Why is "as a beginning . . ." a bad translation?

Lloyd Barré

--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com, "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 12:36 AM

Lloyd,

I'm a little confused! If I didn't make myself clear before, I do not agree
with your translation of BR)$T in Gen 1:1. Yes, I agree that B has a temporal
sense here. But for that reason, "as a beginning, elohim created..." is a bad
translation: "as" (in that context) is not a temporal preposition at all. On
the other hand, "in the beginning" is a temporal translation of B, and is
perfectly adequate. "In the beginning" is *not* a locative translation of B.

Stephen Shead
Santiago, Chile

2009/2/6 LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>

Thank you. I am glad you took my meaning. Do you agree?

Lloyd Barré

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org, l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 1:41 PM

Lloyd,

You wrote:
'Also, in Genesis 1, the first preposition, b, should be translated as
temporal rather than locative as is so commonly done. Thus, I would
interpret, "as a beginning, elohim created . . , not "in the beginning . . ."'

This is a miniscule point, but I think you have it the wrong way around: "in
the beginning" is a temporal translation of B, not a locative one, whereas
your translation doesn't render B either temporally or locatively.

Perhaps your confusion is with the word "in", whose most "basic" meaning
(shall we say) is a locative one. But in line with the human propensity to
interpret temporal experience by analogy with spatial experience, it also has
a very common and normal temporal sense ("during the time of"). So "in the
kitchen" uses the locative sense of "in", whereas "in the 16th century" uses
the temporal sense.

In the context of Gen 1:1, the preposition "in" in the phrase "in the
beginning" establishes a temporal relationship between "the beginning" and
"God created...".

But your translation does not render B temporally at all. The temporal bit in
your translation is the substantive "beginning" itself - R)$T - but the
prepositional relationship "as" is not temporal translation of B at all; it
means something like "by way of".

Stephen Shead
Centro de Estudios Pastorales
Santiago, Chile

2009/2/5 <b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org>

From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: Ancient Bible History <AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>, b-Hebrew
<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:27:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [b-hebrew] Hebrew considerations
The interest in a consistent transliteration system for Hebrew leads me to
think that this list, called "b-Hebrew," has an interest in the language.
Perhaps I could offer some help on this topic with a brief discussion of the
verbal system:

There are seven basic stems in pairs of active and passive:

Qal -Niphal
Piel-Paul
Hiphil-Hophal
Hithpael is middle voice

There is an active and passive participle
qatol and qatul

Also the infinitive construct.

The stems are determined by reading the infix patterns.

There is also the perfect and imperfect aspects. This is not tense but
archionsart or type of action. The action is conceived as either complete or
incomplete and may be applied to any tense.

There is also waw consecutive with the first verb in a sequence determines
the aspect of all verbs connected by the conjuction waw.

The issue that might be open to discussion is whether or not we are right to
see the qtl and yqtl forms as communication aspect rather that time of action.

Also, in Genesis 1, the first preposition, b, should be translated as
temporal rather than locative as is so commonly done. Thus, I would
interpret, "as a beginning, elohim created . . , not "in the beginning . . ."

Lloyd Barré
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre

>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 14:13:18 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: James Bowick <james AT bowick.com>,
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Syntax and creation in Gen 1:1
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I already dealt with the question. Bara should be read as a Qal perfect with
the Masoretes. That the statement is absolute is shown by the concluding
statement in Gen 2:3.

Lloyd Barré, PhD

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, James Bowick <james AT bowick.com> wrote:

From: James Bowick <james AT bowick.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Syntax and creation in Gen 1:1
To: "Stephen Shead" <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Cc: l_barre AT yahoo.com, "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 3:37 AM

The issue of pre-existent matter or ex nihilo creation is influenced strongly
by the reading of BR). In the Masoretic text it is pointed BARA, a Qal 3ms
perfect (he created), however it is also possible to point it BORE, a Qal ms
participle (creating). If BR) is read as a participle, then Gen 1:1 becomes
a temporal clause, not a principle clause. It would be translated "In the
beginning, when God was creating..." Robert Holmstedt presented a paper to
the Canadian Society of Biblical Studies a couple of years back that was
published in Vetus Testamentum (58 2008, 56-67) which argued on linguistic
grounds that BR) is more likely a participle. Sadly, I cannot remember the
details of his argument, nor do I currently have access to the article. I
think though, that this may pose a good starting point for a discussion along
the lines Stephen suggests. Is anyone aware of linguistic evidence on either
side?

James Bowick
McMaster Divinity College

PS- this thread was [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:

........

Secondly, I didn't mean to imply anything about the pre-existence or
otherwise of the primeval waters, as presented in Gen 1. I'm not sure where
you got that from in my response - nothing in my argument precludes either a
pre-existent view or an ex nihilo view. (Actually, if people want to
continue that debate, from a Hebrew grammar point of view, I'll listen in
with great interest - though I'd suggest a new thread.)

Stephen Shead
Santiago, Chile

>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 14:16:44 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
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Subject: [b-hebrew] Moses wrote the Pentateuch?!
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That Moses wrote of his own death prophetically is a preposterous, desparate
attempt of piety to maintain that Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch. This is
long rejected by criticial, mainstream scholarship.

Lloyd Barré, PhD

--- On Thu, 1/1/70, <> wrote:

From: <>
Subject:
To:
Date: Thursday, January 1, 1970, 12:00 AM

>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 14:20:34 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com>,
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ABH aris Jacob & Psalm 29
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'el has many meanings in the Hebrew Bible and in Semitic languages. If one
check's BDB, one can learn of the semantic range of the word. The 'elim
(1:1) of Psalm 29 are the council of the gods, among whom is Yahweh. They
are called upon to recongize his preeminence just as Baal was recongized as
preeminent for defeating Yam and Mot.

Lloyd Barré, PhD

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ABH aris Jacob & Psalm 29
To: "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 5:29 AM

Shalom Shoshanna;

You wrote, "El is another name for G-d......", but such is not the
case in
biblical Hebrew, rather in biblical Hebrew, then term "El" is merely
a
descriptive title. A good exampe of this we can use is the case of the
President of the United States of America, his name is Barak Obama, but
people refer to him as "Mr. President". The same applies to the deity
of
Yisra'el, his name is not "El", he is merely preferred to as
such, because
such is his title of position to us.

Yo*h*anan bin-Dawidh
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
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Romans was written in Koine Greek. They rendered Yahweh buy Kurios, "Lord."

Lloyd Barré, PhD

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au> wrote:

From: Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:02 AM

So why wasn't is in Rom 10:13

doug belot

----- Original Message -----
From: LM Barre
To: Doug Belot
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible

Yes.

Lloyd Barré, PhD

--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au> wrote:

From: Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 11:42 PM

Thanks Lloyd , I tried to get to you before , this site takes a bit of
following , can you tell me if the "YHWH" was used for Jole 2:32 , "call on
the name of the LORD"

doug belot

----- Original Message -----
From: LM Barre
To: Doug Belot ; b-Hebrew
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible

Only the consonants were written. The inclusion of a system of vowels is
quite late, around the time of Christ.

Lloyd Barré

--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au> wrote:

From: Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com, "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 12:44 AM

Was it written in the form of YHWH , or actually written as "Yahweh" , and by
the 9th century , are you bc'ing , or 9th century from Adam.

doug belot

----- Original Message -----
From: LM Barre
To: Doug Belot ; b-Hebrew
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible

The 9th century. The Mesha Stele

The Mesha Stele (popularized in the 19th century as the "Moabite Stone") is a
black basalt stone, bearing an inscription by the 9th century BC Moabite King
Mesha, discovered in 1868 at Dhiban (biblical "Dibon," capital of Moab) now
in Jordan. The Stele is notable because it is thought to be the earliest
known reference to the sacred Hebrew name of God - YHWH. It also notable as
the most extensive inscription ever recovered that refers to ancient Israel,
and French scholar André Lemaire reported that line 31 of the Stele bears the
phrase "the house of David" (in Biblical Archaeology Review [May/June 1994],
pp. 30-37).[1]
The inscription of 34 lines is written in the Moabite language. It was set up
by Mesha, about 850 BC, as a record and memorial of his victories in his
revolt against the Kingdom of Israel during the reign of king Ahaziah after
the death of Israel's king Ahab.
The stone is 124 cm high and 71 cm wide and deep, and rounded at the top. It
was discovered at the ancient Dibon now Dhiban, Jordan, in August 1868, by
Rev. F. A. Klein, a German missionary in Jerusalem. "The Arabs of the
neighborhood, dreading the loss of such a talisman, broke the stone into
pieces; but a squeeze (or papier-mâché impression) had already been obtained
by Charles Simon Clermont-Ganneau, and most of the fragments were recovered
and pieced together by him".[8] The squeeze (which has never been published)
and the reassembled stele (which has been published in many books and
encyclopedias) are now in the Louvre Museum.

Lloyd Barré

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au> wrote:

From: Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 11:59 PM

WHEN WAS THIS WRITTEN .

----- Original Message ----- From: "LM Barre"
<l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: "Ancient Bible History"
<AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>; "b-Hebrew"
<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:46 AM
Subject: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible

Another instance of Yahweh outside the Bible, as if that mattered, is the
Mesha
inscription:

"And I took from there the ['r']ly of Yahweh and I dragged them
before Chemosh."

Lloyd Barré

_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

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>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 16:04:22 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>, b-Hebrew
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
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You wrote:

". . . while the Hebrew Bible uses the terms and features of ANE cosmology,
in many cases it simultaneously challenges them and presents an alternative
theological conviction. Genesis 1 does this at many points."

How does Genesis 1 challenge Egyptian cosmology in particular. I am thinking
of the Memphite Theology where Ptah creates by divine fiat.

Start a new threat if you like.

Lloyd Barré, PhD

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 8:16 PM

I'm sorry you misunderstood me again. I was NOT arguing that creation is
presented as ex nihilo in Gen 1. I never said anything either for or against
it. I am also well aware of the common features of ANE cosmology, and aware
of their presence in biblical descriptions.

I did, however, suggest that a separate thread on the issue would be useful,
because I am interested in hearing people's arguments one way or the other,
based on the Hebrew grammar. (And for me personally, the fact that something
was a common feature of ANE cosmology does not automatically make it a
feature of biblical cosmology - while the Hebrew Bible uses the terms and
features of ANE cosmology, in many cases it simultaneously challenges them
and presents an alternative theological conviction. Genesis 1 does this at
many points.)

Perhaps you meant to send this email to the group - you actually sent it only
to me. But I suggest that it belongs with the new thread on "Syntax and
creation in Gen 1:1".

Stephen Shead.

2009/2/9 LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>

How can creation be ex nihilo when the waters and the darkeness and the
divine wind pre-exist? The "beginning" (rosh) is the beginning of the
creative acts where gods overcome formlessness (tohu) and emptiness (bohu).
The primeval waters are separated by the firmament, a solid, pounded out
crystal like thing that suspends the waters above from the waters below.
This type of cosmology is common in the ANE. Tiamat, the waters of chaos,is
also split in half like a shellfish to separate the celestial waters from the
terrestial waters.

Lloyd Barré, PhD

>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 16:20:49 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: Ancient Bible History <AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>,
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Subject: [b-hebrew] The Shasu Yahwist and Archaeology
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We have this conclusion from a field report investigating an Iron Age Shasu
cemetery.

"Most archaeologists and ancient historians who have carried out field
work in the region of Edom have had little problem in suggesting that during
the Late Bronze/Early Iron Age, Edom was home to the Shasu nomads.82
However, until the recent excavations at the Wadi Fidan 40 Cemetery,
there had been no site excavated in Edom that could definitely be ascribed
to the Shasu.
>From this recent research in the Jabal Hamrat Fidan, we have for the first
time begun the task of relating the historical and textual evidence for the
Early Iron Age of Edom with the archaeological record. The exact identity of
the population of the Wadi Fidan 40 Cemetery as part of the Shasu may
never be definitively established, but the archaeological and
textual/historical
linkages, as outlined above, suggest that in this case the archaeological
record
supports the biblical and historical/textual evidence."

Lloyd Barré, PhD

>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 16:29:15 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
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Subject: [b-hebrew] More on the Shasu Yahwists
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This piece is of interest to me because of what it says about the Shasu. I
do not subscribe to his ideas on the Exodus.

"The reign of Ramses I lasted only one full year, and correlates well with
the death of the Pharaoh during the Exodus as described by the Bible.(7)
Josephus, quoting Manetho, states that those responsible for Egypt's 13 years
of trouble were attacked by "Rampses" and driven out of Egypt.(8) At the time
of the death of Ramses I, his son Seti I, was involved in a military
expedition in the Sinai,(9) because "the foe belonging to the Shasu are
plotting rebellion."(10) The Karnak Temple mural from which this record is
quoted also states, "the rebels, they know not how they shall [flee]; the
vanquished of the Shasu [becoming like] that which exist not."(11) It stands
to reason that an attack on a tribe of bedouins(12) could have waited at
least until Ramses' burial ... unless Seti believed that they were considered
a threat to the throne, or assisting the people he considered responsible for
his father's death. (The name Seti is derived from the Nile Delta
god Set. Set, in Egyptian legend was the murderer of Osiris. Later in
Hebrew/Christian beliefs he became namesake of the Biblical Satan.)

The following is a direct quote from "Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient
Times" by Donald Redford.(13) "Shasu [literally meaning "a people who move on
foot"](14) are found in Egyptian texts from the 18th Dynasty through the
Third Intermediate Period. They most frequently occur in generalizing toponym
lists where the context helps little in pinpointing their location. But lists
from Soleb and Amarah [in Nubia], ultimately of fifteenth century [B..C.]
origin [circa 17th/18th Dynasty] suggest that an original concentration of
Shasu settlements lay in southern Transjordan in the plains of Moab and
northern Edom. Here a group of six names is identified as in 'the land of the
Shasu' and these include Se'ir (i.e., Edom), Laban (probably Libona, south of
Amman), Sam'ath (cf. the Shim'ethites, a clan of the Kenites: 1 Chron. 2:55),
Wrbr (probably the Wady Hasa) [, Yhw, and Pysps].(15) Elsewhere in texts of
the 19th and 20th Dynasties, the consistent linking of
Shasu with Edom and the Arabah (Timna) places the identifications on the
earlier lists beyond doubt."
"The localization of the 'Land of the Shasu' in the mountainous districts of
Se'ir ... has an interesting consequence for one name in the mentioned lists
from Soleb and Amarah - 'Yhw (in) the land of the Shasu.' For half a century
it has been generally admitted that we have here the tetragrammaton, the name
of the Israelite god, 'Yahweh'; and if this be the case, as it undoubtedly
is, the passage constitutes a most precious indication of the whereabouts
during the late fifteenth century B.C. of an enclave revering this god. ...
Numerous passages in later Biblical tradition ... depict Yahweh 'coming forth
from Se'ir' and originating in Edom."

Donald Redford goes on to state that the Shasu "burst with especially
grievous force just before the beginning of the 19th Dynasty across ...
northern Sinai, cutting off Egypt's coastal route ... though Sety I had
little trouble in beating them back ..." But why had these descendents of
Laban (uncle/father-in-law of Jacob and great-great-great-grandfather of the
Biblical Moses, Genesis 28:2) and adherents of Yahweh (i.e., Jehovah), whose
homeland was in and around Mount Se'ir in Edom, suddenly appeared along the
Via Maris (Mediterranean coastal route and main artery between Egypt and
Canaan) at the same time that Moses and the Israelites are said (according to
Manetho) to have been driven from Egypt by "Rampses?".

A reasonable deduction is that they were requested by Akhenaten to assist in
his return to Egypt, either to reclaim his throne, or to extract the
remainder of his followers ("speak to Pharaoh about bringing the Israelites
out"). The size of the Shasu force (200,000 by the Karnak account), which may
have included the Exodus party ("the foe belonging to the Shasu"), and their
actions (possibly raiding two Egyptian garrisons along the Via Maris in order
to obtain water)(16) were likely used as justification for a counterstrike by
Seti.
The attacks on the Shasu were continued in the reign of the Pharaoh Ramses II
who succeeded Seti, and were again considered important enough to be recorded
on the walls of the Karnak temple, and at the Nile Delta city of Tanis(17) as
well. Moreover, Ramses II's son and successor Merenptah lists another group
(in lieu of the Shasu) as being a victim of his father's campaigning in
Palestine, namely Israel itself (Israel stela account), indicating that by
Merenptah's time Israel was recognized as a separate people apart from the
groups recorded by the Egyptians as living in "the land of the Shasu.."

Lloyd Barré, PhD

>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 16:36:17 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
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Subject: [b-hebrew] Toponymns for the Yahwistic Shasu
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"Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times" by Donald
Redford: pages 271-273

Shasu-- literally meaning "a people who move on
foot"--are found in Egyptian texts from the 18th
Dynasty through the Third Intermediate Period. They
most frequently occur in generalizing toponym lists
where the context helps little in pinpointing their
location. But lists from Soleb and Amarah ultimately
of fifteenth century BC origin suggest that an
original concentration of Shasu settlements lay in
southern Trans-Jordan in the plains of Moab and
northern Edom.

Here a group of six names is identified as in 'the
land of the Shasu' and these include
#1--Se'ir (Edom)
#2--Laban (Libona, south of Amman)
#3--Sam'ath (Shim'ethites, a clan of the Kenites: 1
Chron. 2:55)
#4-- Wrbr (Wady Hasa)
#5--Yhw
#6--Pysps

Elsewhere in texts of the 19th and 20th Dynasties, the
consistent linking of Shasu with Edom and the Arabah
(Timna) places the identifications on the earlier
lists beyond doubt.

The localization of the 'Land of the Shasu' in the
mountainous districts of Se'ir

--has an interesting consequence for one name in the
mentioned lists from Soleb and Amarah - 'Yhw (in) the
land of the Shasu.'

For half a century it has been generally admitted
that we have here the tetragrammaton, the name of the
Israelite god, 'Yahweh'; and if this be the case, as
it undoubtedly is, the passage constitutes a most
precious indication of the whereabouts during the late
fifteenth century B.C. of an enclave revering this
god.

Numerous passages in later Biblical tradition depict
Yahweh 'coming forth from Se'ir' and originating in
Edom."

***

Thank you.

L. M. Barre, Ph.D.

Lloyd Barré, PhD

>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 16:39:21 2009
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Subject: [b-hebrew] Yahweh recognized in Egyptian Inscriptions
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Shasu of Yahweh is a term that appears in Egyptian inscriptions of
the 18th and 19th Dynasties (c. 1540-1190 B.C.). One, found at Amarah
or Amrah in Upper Nubia, dates to the reign of Seti I (c. 1300 B.C.).
An earlier inscription, probably from the reign of Amenhotep III (c.
1400 B.C.) was found at the Temple of Amun in Soleb, Sudan. Early
identifications of this name were cautious, as Siegfried H. Horn
stated, "Whether one of the Edomite tribal names bearing the name
Yahweh (t3 ¹3sw yhw) implies that Edomites were followers of the god
Yahweh or whether the name of the tribe has only a curious coincidence
with the name of the Israelite god is still undecided." [5] With time,
however, it has generally become recognized for what it is. Redford
states that "For half a century it has been generally admitted that we
have here the tetragrammaton, the name of the Israelite god, 'Yahweh';
and if this be the case, as it undoubtedly is, the passage constitutes
a most precious indication of the whereabouts during the late
fifteenth century B.C. of an enclave revering this god." [6] Redford
even goes so far as to call this group "nascent Israel." [7]

Lloyd Barré, PhD

>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 16:44:06 2009
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Subject: [b-hebrew] Location of the Shasu in Edom (Se'ir) agrees with
biblical data
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And while it would be wrong to jump to the conclusion that 'Israel' as known
from the period of the Judges or the early monarchy was already in existence
in Edom at this time, one cannot help but recall the numerous passages in
later Biblical tradition that depict Yahweh 'coming froth from Se'ir' and
originating in Edom. The only reasonably conclusion is that one major
component in the later amalgam that constituted Israel, and the one with whom
the worship of Yahweh originated, must be looked for among the Shasu of Edom
already at the end of the fifteenth century B.C."
1992 - Donald B. Redford

Yahweh is also said to have come from Teman (Hab) and Paran (Deut).

Lloyd Barré, PhD

>From farmerjoeblo AT hotmail.com Mon Feb 9 17:12:36 2009
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Piel and the Binyanim (Re: Verb Stem Confusion)
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Isaac,

We can hardly "rest assured" by your claim when a) you have provided no
substantiation of your claim, nor interaction with the arguments of
Greenberg, Fehri, Kaufman, etc.; and b) you have demonstrated consistent
linguistic incompetence in other areas and an unwillingness to learn
linguistic method. As such, your claims of "sheer nonsense" can simply
be dismissed.

Greenberg particularly has provided the typological background for
understanding the verbal form. Under such an analysis, the reduplication
of the middle radical is both predictable and explainable.

Of course, as I've stated previously, the verbal plurality function of
the Piel I take as one of its functions, with a
resultative/causative/estimative function of (generally) stative verbs
being its other main function, as Jenni and others have shown.

Regards,
David Kummerow.

>
>
> You can rest assured that the the claim of intensity or repetition
> (RAKAD versus RIKED) for the Hebrew piel is sheer nonsense.
>
> Isaac Fried, Boston University
>
> On Feb 9, 2009, at 7:37 AM, Peter Bekins wrote:
>
>> Yitzhak,
>>
>> Thanks for the plug. For what it is worth, I personally disagree with
>> Goetze and lean towards the view that the doubling indicates
>> plurality as is common in Semitic (and non-Semitic) languages. This
>> was argued well by Joseph Greenberg (though I haven't put up a
>> summary of this paper yet):
>>
>> Greenberg, Joseph H. âThe Semitic âintensiveâ as verbal plurality: a
>> study of grammaticalization. Pages 577-587 in Semitic studies in
>> honor of Wolf Leslau on the occasion of his eighty-fifth birthday.
>> Edited by Alan S Kaye. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz, 1991.
>>
>> I summarize Kouwenberg's study of the D-stem (piel) in Akkadian in
>> which he reaches the same conclusions:
>>
>> http://balshanut.wordpress.com/2008/06/26/kouwenberg-njc-gemination-
>> in-the-akkadian-verb-studia-semitica-neerlandica-33-assen-van-
>> gorcum-1997/
>>
>> Peter Bekins
>>
>> On Feb 9, 2009, at 12:52 AM, b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
>>
>>> Peter Bekins discusses one article on the Piel here:
>>> http://balshanut.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/goetze-albrecht-the-so-
>>> called-intensive-of-the-semitic-languages-jaos-vol-62-no-1-
>>> march-1942-1-8/
>>>
>>> Also relevant is his discussion here:
>>> http://balshanut.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/the-complicated-
>>> morphology-of-the-semitic-binyanim/
>>>
>>> Yitzhak Sapir
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> b-hebrew mailing list
>> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
> From:
> fred putnam <fred.putnam AT gmail.com>
> Date:
> Mon, 9 Feb 2009 08:46:54 -0500
> To:
> Olivier Randrianjaka <rev_oli AT hotmail.com>
>
> To:
> Olivier Randrianjaka <rev_oli AT hotmail.com>
> CC:
> b-hebrew Forum <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>, steve AT voiceinwilderness.info
>
>
> Dear Olivier,
>
> Good question!
>
> Hendiadys is a phenomenon of general human thought and language; it is not
> restricted or special to the biblical writings. Identifying a hendiadys is
> more of an art than a science, and not everyone agrees that every pair is or
> is not a hendiadys.
>
> There are probably two primary kinds hendiadys: "parallel" and
> "complementary".
>
> In parallel hendiadys two verbs, nouns, or other forms together refer to a
> single entity or idea, as though the thing referred to were divided into its
> two main components, e.g., "ladies and gentlemen" (= everyone here present),
> "going out and coming in" (= all the affairs of life).
>
> But not everyone agrees. Some biblical scholars see, for example, "heaven[s]
> and earth" (Gn 1.1) as a hendiadys for "everything" or as the biblical way
> of referring to what we now call the "universe", others view them as
> identifying the basic components of our physical--earth and sky--without any
> reference beyond human sense apprehension.
>
> In complementary hendiadys two verbal forms have the same conjugation
> ["tense"], subject (person, gender, number), and are linked by a conjunction
> (W-); they do not need to have the same stem/binyan. The first verbal
> modifies the second. MHR and $KM can mean "do X quickly" and "do X early in
> the morning", respectively, HLK can mean "do X more and more [or
> continually]", and $WB can mean "do X again" ("X" = the second verbal). This
> does not mean that MHR, $KM, HLK, and $WB do have their "regular" or
> "normal" function, but rather that they may sometimes modify another verb.
>
> I hope that this is helpful.
>
> Peace.
>
> Fred
>
>
> Dear Putnam,
>
> I am glad to get your reply, but may I bother you a little bit? Could you
> tell me please how do you recognize that such occurence is a hendiadys or
> not. Are you using software or book or this is becase of your good knowledge
> of biblical hebrew?
>
> Thanks for your helps
>
> Best regards,
>
> Olivier Randrianjaka
>
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 5:26 PM, fred putnam <fred.putnam AT gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Olivier,
>>
>> Thanks for your note.
>>
>> I've glanced quickly at occurrences of CHESED ... WEMETH with eight words
>> of each other in a single v. (28 occurrences). Their use suggests that they
>> can be considered a word-pair, even though (as you point out) they normally
>> primarily as a hendiadys (23xx), since they also occur five times as
>> parallel terms in synonymously parallel lines (Pss 57.11; 69.14; 108.5;
>> 117.2; Is 16.5); perhaps we should add Josh 2.12 to this list, even though
>> its parallel clauses are not poetic lines.
>>
>> So perhaps they were primarily a hendiadys that could also be split between
>> parallel lines so that they functioned as a word-pair (again, as the latter
>> term has come to be used).
>>
>> Great question!
>>
>> Peace.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 2:44 AM, Olivier Randrianjaka
>> <rev_oli AT hotmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Fred Putnam,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your contribution, I am quite brand new in this and I am
>>> wondering according to your explanation whether paired words like CHESED
>>> WEMETH, which is sometimes should be translated as a "hendiadys" are also
>>> classified as word pairs.
>>> Thanks for your helps.
>>>
>>> Olivier Randrianjaka
>>>
>>>> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 19:07:22 -0500
>>>> From: fred.putnam AT gmail.com
>>>> To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
>>>> CC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org; steve AT voiceinwilderness.info
>>>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
>>>>
>>>> Dear Lloyd,
>>>>
>>>> Word-pairs tend to occur in parallel poetic lines, as you suggest, and
>>> the
>>>> pairs that you list from Pr 10.1b-c are, of course, semanticaly parallel
>>>> pairs *in this verse*, but this is not really the way that the term has
>>> come
>>>> to be used in the study of ANE poetry (on which see my earlier post).
>>>>
>>>> To use the same example, "wise/foolish" and "father/mother" are
>>> word-pairs,
>>>> since they occur together, and in this order, not infrequently in the
>>> Bible.
>>>> But are "makes glad" and "heaviness" a word-pair? [I cite the same
>>> version
>>>> for consistency.] The piel of SMX [Sorry--I don't have my
>>> transliteration
>>>> scheme to hand.] occurs 26xx (times) in Biblical Hebrew (15 of which are
>>> in
>>>> Pss/8xx & Pro/7xx--it is a more-or-less "poetic" form). None of its
>>>> occurences parallel TWGH, apart from Pr 10.1. Even in Jer 31.13, where
>>> the
>>>> "mourning", "joy", "sorrow", "rejoicing", &c. occur--with several
>>> "slots"
>>>> into which TWGH would seem to fit--it does not occur. This suggests
>>> quite
>>>> strongly that the verb SMX and noun TWGH are not a word-pair.
>>>>
>>>> TWGH occurs only 4xx (Ps 119.28 (no parallel); Pr 10.1; 14.13; 17.21),
>>> so
>>>> there is not much evidence upon which to identify them as a pair.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, TWGH is either the predicate or subject of Pr 14.13b,
>>>> where it occurs with--but does not parallel--the noun SMXH; in Pr 17.21
>>> it
>>>> parallels the qal of SMX, but their order is opposite that of Pr 10.1
>>> (TWGH
>>>> in 17.21a, qal of SMX in 17.21b). While this implies that these roots
>>> were
>>>> understood as antonyms--SMX is negated in order to create a synonymous
>>>> parallelism--it does not establish their identity as a word-pair; there
>>> is
>>>> not a large enough sampling to draw this conclusion.
>>>>
>>>> I hope that this makes sense.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for asking, Steve--this is an interesting line of conversation.
>>>>
>>>> Peace.
>>>>
>>>> Fred
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 6:06 PM, LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Words used in parallel members--matching subject, verbs, objects,
>>>>> adjectives etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> A wise son maketh a glad father:
>>>>> but a foolish son is the heaviness of his mother.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Wise son" is paired with "foolish son," "maketh glad" is paired with
>>>>> "heaviness" and "father" is paired with "mother."
>>>>>
>>>>> Lloyd BarrÃ©
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 2/7/09, Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
>>>>> To: "'b-hebrew Forum'" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 1:16 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Can someone please explain: What is a word-pair? Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> -Steve Miller
>>>>> Detroit
>>>>> www.voiceInWilderness.info
>>>>> And I saw: and behold, a black horse, and he that sat upon it having a
>>>>> balance in his hand. And I heard as a voice in the midst of the four
>>>>> living
>>>>> creatures saying, A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts
>>> of
>>>>> barley for a day's wages: and do not injure the oil and the wine. (Rev
>>>>> 6:5b-6)
>>>>> The chariot in which are the black horses goes forth into the land of
>>> the
>>>>> north. (Zech 6:6a)
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
>>>>>> bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of James Spinti
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:30 PM
>>>>>> To: b-hebrew Forum
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic
>>> literatures
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not terribly recent, but have you looked at the 3 volumes of Ras
>>> Shamra
>>>>>> Parallels from Biblical Institute Press?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HTH,
>>>>>> James
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> James Spinti
>>>>>> Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
>>>>>> Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
>>>>>> Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
>>>>>> jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
>>>>>> Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
>>>>>> Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
>>>>>> Fax: 574-269-6788
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
>>>>>> bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Olivier Randrianjaka
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:53 AM
>>>>>> To: george.athas AT moore.edu.au; b-hebrew Forum
>>>>>> Subject: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all of you!!I am looking for the most recent works concerning
>>> Word
>>>>>> pairs studies in Biblical as well as in ancient Semitic literatures,
>>> CAN
>>>>>> ANYONE HELP?Thanks a lot. Olivier RandrianjakaPhD Student atMission
>>>>> School
>>>>>> and TheologyStavanger, Norway
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> b-hebrew mailing list
>>>>> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> b-hebrew mailing list
>>>>> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --)---------------
>>>>
>>>> Fred Putnam
>>>>
>>>> Philadelphia Biblical University
>>>>
>>>> 215-702-4502 (office/voicemail)
>>>> 215-393-9683 (home)
>>>> www.fredputnam.org (website)
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> b-hebrew mailing list
>>>> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> DÃ©couvrez tout ce que Windows Live a Ã vous apporter
>>> !<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --)---------------
>>
>> Fred Putnam
>>
>> Philadelphia Biblical University
>>
>> 215-702-4502 (office/voicemail)
>> 215-393-9683 (home)
>> www.fredputnam.org (website)
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
> From:
> K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
> Date:
> Mon, 9 Feb 2009 08:13:45 -0800
> To:
> b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
> To:
> b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
>
> Lloyd:
>
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 3:35 PM, LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Context decides. The waters are not created in Gen 1:2. They pre-exist as
>> in Egyptian cosmology.
>>
>
> Here you are reading your presuppositions into the text.
>
> There is nothing here in the text itself that indicates that the waters
> pre-existed. This is a rather simple piece of prose where
> the exegetical reading of the text indicate that the waters were created as
> part of the creation of the earth.
>
> Many of us consider eisegesis (reading ideas into the text which are not
> explicitly there) as invalid. Further that is a practice of theology, not
> linguistic analysis.
>
>>
>> Lloyd BarrÃ©, PhD
>>
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [b-hebrew] Hyksos
> From:
> K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
> Date:
> Mon, 9 Feb 2009 08:27:01 -0800
> To:
> b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
> To:
> b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
>
> Yigal:
>
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 8:09 PM, Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:
>
>> Dear Bryant,
>>
>> I fail to see even the slightest connection to Hebrew language in this
>> thread. So it will not be allwed to cary too far. From a historical point
>> of
>> view, it's adding speculation on top of speculation - what's the point?
>>
>> Yigal Levin
>>
>
> I can see the connection, though more as a definitional question.
>
> In other contexts, the royal family ruling the country has been called by
> the name of that country, even when ethnically they are not of the country.
> So what Bryant is asking, is it within the context of the Hebrew language
> that the Hyksos, the ruling class in Egypt, would be called "Egyptian" in
> spite of the fact that they were asiatic Semites? I have wondered the same
> question before myself.
>
> The only problem I can see is that we have too little information to give a
> definite answer to that question.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [b-hebrew] Iron and Curses in Deuteronomy 28
> From:
> K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
> Date:
> Mon, 9 Feb 2009 09:12:34 -0800
> To:
> B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
> To:
> B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
>
> Yitzhak:
>
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Yitzhak Sapir <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 8:10 PM, K Randolph wrote:
>>
>>> Uh, Yitzhak, before answering this, I checked every verse that you
>>> mentioned, found that you gave the wrong numbers for a couple, and read
>>> meanings into the text that the text cannot support when reading
>> carefully.
>>> As for the URLs, I already gave them, why should I repeat myself? The
>> same
>>> with some of the other arguments you repeated?
>> Karl,
>>
>> Before answering this you should have taken a deep breath, and asked
>> yourself, is it possible, in an even remote way, that it is your Bible
>> whose
>> verse numbers are off for Ex 20:22-23?
>>
>
> Possible, but unlikely. So far I have found no where where the consonantal
> text differs from the WLC, and after your question here, checked and it
> doesn't here either.
>
>> Really, your reluctance to provide your sources is your own disadvantage.
>
>
> I already did, so why should I do it again specifically for you?
>
>> But it is your expectation that others provide evidence when you won't
>> follow through, that other explain their "misreadings" when it is your
>> reading that should be explained, and in the above paragraph relating to
>> abject ignorance, your simple failure to say you're sorry that is really
>> offensive.
>>
>
> Why should I say I'm sorry for your mistake?
>
>> Yitzhak Sapir
>>
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [b-hebrew] Iron and Curses in Deuteronomy 28
> From:
> Yitzhak Sapir <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
> Date:
> Mon, 9 Feb 2009 17:44:56 +0000
> To:
> B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
> To:
> B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 5:12 PM, K Randolph wrote:
>
>>> Before answering this you should have taken a deep breath, and asked
>>> yourself, is it possible, in an even remote way, that it is your Bible
>>> whose
>>> verse numbers are off for Ex 20:22-23?
>
>> Possible, but unlikely. So far I have found no where where the consonantal
>> text differs from the WLC, and after your question here, checked and it
>> doesn't here either.
>
> The verse divisons are not part of the consonantal text, but part of the
> cantillation. Just because the WLC is placed online electronically does not
> mean you know how to read it correctly.
>
> Read here: http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/shavuot/ofe.html
> (I would translate the relevant points but you can read consonantal Hebrew).
>
> Yitzhak Sapir
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [b-hebrew] Iron and Curses in Deuteronomy 28
> From:
> K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
> Date:
> Mon, 9 Feb 2009 09:51:55 -0800
> To:
> "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
> To:
> "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
>
> Yitzhak:
>
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Yitzhak Sapir <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Dear Harold,
>>
>> â¦
>> I think your reading of Num 35 is very very forced. If the author
>> went through the trouble of differentiating iron from wood or stone,
>> and metal weapons were generally available also in bronze, it
>> would have been appropriate to add a listing for bronze.
>
>
> Two things:
>
> 1) The word in Hebrew is not "weapon", rather "implement". While it is true
> that weapons are a subset of implements, this would include all the tools
> that a working man would more likely have in his hand, like hoes, hammers,
> etc. which were more likely made of iron than more expensive bronze. (As far
> as I can tell, there was no specialized word in Biblical Hebrew for
> "weapon".)
>
> 2) As far as I can tell, there was no word in Biblical Hebrew for generic
> "metal", hence listing one, and possibly the one most common for implements,
> would stand in for all metals (implements of gold and silver can also kill,
> but would be very, very unlikely in the hands of a working man).
>
>>
>> Yitzhak Sapir
>
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [b-hebrew] Exodus 18:26 - Y$PW+W
> From:
> K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
> Date:
> Mon, 9 Feb 2009 10:15:17 -0800
> To:
> "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
> To:
> "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>
>
> Jason:
>
> 2009/2/8 Jason Hare <jaihare AT gmail.com>
>
>> Exodus 18:26
>> ×Ö°×©Ö¸××¤Ö°××Ö¼ ×Ö¶×ª-×Ö¸×¢Ö¸× ×Ö°Ö¼×Ö¸×-×¢Öµ×ª
>> ×Ö¶×ª-×Ö·×Ö¸Ö¼×Ö¸×¨ ×Ö·×§Ö¸Ö¼×©Ö¶×× ×Ö°×Ö´×××Ö¼×
>> ×Ö¶×-×Ö¹×©Ö¶×× ×Ö°×Ö¸×-×Ö·×Ö¸Ö¼×Ö¸×¨ ×Ö·×§Ö¸Ö¼×Ö¹×
>> ×Ö´×©Ö°××¤Ö¼×Ö¼××Ö¼ ×Öµ××
>> W$P+W )T-H(M BKL-(T )T-HDBR HQ$H YBY)WN )L-M$H WKL-HDBR HQ+N Y$PW+W HM
>>
>> I'm just wondering what the form Y$PW+W is there. Shouldn't it be
>> ×Ö´×©Ö°××¤Ö°Ö¼××Ö¼ Y$P+W instead of ×Ö´×©Ö°××¤Ö¼×Ö¼××Ö¼ Y$PW+W?
>> Is there a special
>> significance to this form?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jason Hare
>> Rehovot, Israel
>
>
> One of the things that took a while getting used to when reading the text
> without points is that the materes lexionis are optional, i.e. they
> sometimes are included, sometimes not. In this case, I read this as a simple
> Qal imperfective.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations), Stephen Shead, 02/06/2009
- Message not available
  - Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations), Stephen Shead, 02/06/2009
    - Message not available
      - Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations), Stephen Shead, 02/07/2009
        
        Message not available
        
        Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations), Stephen Shead, 02/08/2009
        
        Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations), LM Barre, 02/09/2009
- <Possible follow-up(s)>
- Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations), George Athas, 02/07/2009
  - Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations), LM Barre, 02/08/2009
    - Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations), George Athas, 02/08/2009
    - Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations), K Randolph, 02/09/2009
- Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations), Shoshanna Walker, 02/08/2009