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  • From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard AT ont.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] "Desire of Women" in Heb. Text of Dan. 11:37
  • Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:00:33 -0600

Yitzhak Sapir wrote:
Both of you are reading these verses with a theological message, and that
theological message may be appropriate for you and those who abide by
your theological beliefs.
HH: The Bible is a theological message.

This short statement makes various assumptions. First, I don't know what
Bible you are referring to.

HH: It doesn't matter. The Tanakh is a theological message.
Probably not the Hebrew Bible, because you later
quote Hebrews on the one hand, and suggest that my doubting the sources
of the book of Ezra is a theological position.

HH: Doubting is a theological issue. Quoting the Book of Hebrews shows that some Israelites of the first century believed Haggai meant a certain thing. They're two thousand years closer to the reality than we are.

The next issue is that the
statement assumes that the Bible's theological message and the book of
Haggai's theological message are one and the same.

HH: There is a Jewish canon.

The various Bibles
were put together years after the book of Haggai. The choice whether to
include books, including Haggai, carries with it a theological message that
is different than that current during the authorship of Haggai. The
Samaritans
which did not include the book of Haggai in their canon at all obviously had
different considerations in mind.

HH: I don't care very much what the Samaritans thought. Salvation is from Israel, not the Samaritans.
That theological message and set of beliefs must
be set aside, however, and the verses interpreted in their proper context to
understand what Haggai was talking about.
HH: The theological message may be taken from the text rather than
imposed on it.

The problem is when you use claims such as:

HH: The Jews of the first century saw the world shaking predicted by
Haggai as an event still in the future.

HH: That's not a problem. It is a fact.

Now, putting aside whether the Jews of the first century did indeed hold
this point of view, the fact is that this point of view is necessarily
separate
from Haggai, whose prophecy relates to events several hundred years
earlier, and was probably authored several hundred years earlier.

HH: The discussion is about the proper interpretation of Haggai, and Israelites of the first century may be supposed to have had access to ancient traditions of interpreting Haggai.

That is,
unless you are suggesting Haggai is a first century composition. When
you suggest that the theological message may be taken form the text
but then go ahead to view the text as any part of a specific canon, the
theological message used is that of the entire canon you are using. If
that canon happens to be the Christian Bible, then it is the Christian
theology that you are using.

HH: I'm talking about what ancient Israelites thought the verse meant that is under discussion.

Haggai was speaking to a
people who did not know of a third temple, who did not expect a third
temple, who did not expect the Davidic line of kings to be interrupted.
HH: The Davidic line of kings had already been interrupted. The fact
that these people were not expecting a third temple is not determinative
because biblical prophecy sometimes speaks of events hundreds or even
thousands of years in advance of the fulfillment.

Well, can you show that Haggai's theology assumes that prophecy sometimes
speaks of events thousands of years in advance of fulfillment or is it your
theology and had you lived in the 201st century, you'd have believed that
prophecy can speak of events tens of thousands of years in advance?

HH: Why do I have to prove such elementary matters to you? Haggai was a Jewish prophet, and that's the way Jewish prophecy works. It is all through the Tanakh. But if you insist, the previous verses suggest as much:

Hag. 2:4 But now be strong, O Zerubbabel,’ declares the LORD. ‘Be strong, O Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest. Be strong, all you people of the land,’ declares the LORD, ‘and work. For I am with you,’ declares the LORD Almighty.
Hag. 2:5 ‘This is what I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt. And my Spirit remains among you. Do not fear.’

HH: The Lord says that his treatment of Israel in Haggai's day is a fulfillment of prophecies or promises made when God brought Israel out of Egypt, which was many hundreds of years earlier by any biblical reckoning, and Haggai was a believer in Israel's religious heritage. Haggai is a very short book, and the issue does not otherwise arise.
In
fact, can you show that Haggai's theology assumes that prophecy can speak
of hundreds of years ahead when not saying so explicitly, and so when he
speaks of Zerubbabel, he is in fact speaking symbolically of someone years
hence?

HH: Why should Haggai be any different than the other prophets? He is the Lord's prophet, and the Lord does not change. So what he does with one prophet he can do with another.

For example, the book of Kings was conceivably authored before
Haggai in entirety, because it does not mention the Persian conquest.
1 Kings 13:2 brings forth a prophecy that would not come to pass for
hundreds of years, but the prophecy is not symbolic at all. When 1 Kings
11:29-39 is symbolic, it clearly explains the symbolism. So why would
Haggai think that all of a sudden, God is speaking in symbolism, that does
not need to spelled out, of a period hundreds of years hence, that does not
need to be spelled out, using a person who was an existent person at that
time as the medium by which to pass the prophecy?

HH: For one thing, Haggai uses the prophetic phrase "in/on that day," which often refers to eschatological prophecy, prophecy to be fulfilled in the far distance (v. 23).

Hag. 2:21 “Tell Zerubbabel governor of Judah that I will shake the heavens and the earth.
Hag. 2:22 I will overturn royal thrones and shatter the power of the foreign kingdoms. I will overthrow chariots and their drivers; horses and their riders will fall, each by the sword of his brother.
Hag. 2:23 “‘On that day,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘I will take you, my servant Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel,’ declares the LORD, ‘and I will make you like my signet ring, for I have chosen you,’ declares the LORD Almighty.”

HH: Second, it seems evident that there was no world shaking in the time of Zerubbabel that caused him to occupy a unique destiny as God's signet ring. He was already back in Israel, so getting him there was not part of the future world shaking God was talking about. When the Israelites saw that Zerubbabel's time did not present the fulfillment of the prophecy, they would realize that it had to be interpreted symbolically.
It is akin to a political
commentator writing an analysis and probable forecast regarding the President
of the United States, and yet when years later some particulars of that
forecast
don't seem to you to have taken place, you'd conclude that the commentator
was speaking symbolically of some period thousands of years later and using
the President only symbolically.

HH: You could look at things that way, but there is a strong current of such prophecies throughout the Bible, and particularly in the contemporaneous Book of Zechariah. They point forward to a Davidic ruler in the future.
I think this is enough for now. Let me just point out that when I said "the
meaning of the prophecies" I meant, "The meaning, as the author of the book
of Haggai, understood them."

HH: I presume Haggai would have had some understanding of what he was saying. I don't suppose he misunderstood himself.

Also, skepticism about the historical reality
underlying the Biblical claims is not a theological position.

HH: Of course it is.
Theology is the
study of the divine and the study of history does not need to be related to
the study of the divine (unless that is a theological position you hold).

HH: The position the Tanakh holds is that theology does relate to historical events.

So
the position that the book of Ezra must be historically accurate because it is
in the divinely sanctioned canon of books is a theological position.But
theview that the book of Ezra is not necessarily accurate is not a theological
position.

HH: Reality counts, and discounting reality changes one's theology. Disassociating theology from biblical history inevitably affects one's theology about Scripture.

To put the point further, the book of Hebrews may be in your
theological view, a 1st century book allowing us to see the views of the Jews
at that time. But for me, it is just a book, and you'd have to show me that
it was composed in the 1st century, that it was representative of the views of
Jews, and that the particular passage you are quoting is original to that book
and are not a later addition by, just for example, 3rd century Christians.s

HH: I don't have to show you anything. And really, the impulse to find the truth must come from you. Seek and you will find. But if you insist on others proving everything for you, you may not find much.

Similarly, if you claim the existence of a Medo-Persian empire, you're going
to have to show that there was a Medo-Persian empire, not by relying just
on the book of Daniel as it is preserved in manuscripts from the 1st BCE and
onwards, but by evidence from the Persian period itself. If you simply rely
on theological positions to show that these two "facts" are true, then you
are speaking to a rather limited audience -- those who accept the entire
Christian Bible as authoritative and also accept that the interpretation you
hold for the book of Daniel is historically accurate.

HH: Reality is reality. God expects faith of his people and appeals to faith. Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence already available about Cyrus, the Medes, and the Persians. You can find it many places, as you well know:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great
http://www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/cyrus.htm
http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/cyrus.html

Especially, I recommend the Bible.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard






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