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  • From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard AT ont.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] "Desire of Women" in Heb. Text of Dan. 11:37
  • Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:09:46 -0600

Dear Yitzhak,
Both of you are reading these verses with a theological message, and that
theological message may be appropriate for you and those who abide by
your theological beliefs.

HH: The Bible is a theological message.

That theological message and set of beliefs must
be set aside, however, and the verses interpreted in their proper context to
understand what Haggai was talking about.

HH: The theological message may be taken from the text rather than imposed on it.

Haggai was speaking to a
people who did not know of a third temple, who did not expect a third
temple, who did not expect the Davidic line of kings to be interrupted.

HH: The Davidic line of kings had already been interrupted. The fact that these people were not expecting a third temple is not determinative because biblical prophecy sometimes speaks of events hundreds or even thousands of years in advance of the fulfillment.

For
these people, the word "Messiah" was not something extra-ordinarily
special.

HH: The idea of a David king is in view, and by this time that was a special idea.

It was simply a term for God's chosen king at the time. It would
be as if we were to take the ceremony of the President of the United
States being sworn into office, and then speaking of the Sworn Person
as something special. In the time of Haggai, this chosen king was not
necessarily a Jewish king -- Cyrus is called "Anointed" (Messiah) by
Ezekiel.

HH: However, God had chosen the Davidic line to be kings, and Zerubbabel was the heir in that line. So when God speaks of making him like a signet ring on his finger because he had chosen him, the natural implication is that he will be the chosen king. But Zerubbabel never became king and this fact, plus the futuristic terms of the prophecy, suggest that Zerubbabel here represents the Davidic king or Davidic line as a symbol of a future fulfillment.

Worldly kings had not given gifts to the Temple. Cyrus allowed
the people to enjoy their religious freedoms.This was a general policy as the
Cyrus Cylinder indicates. It also indicates how much the book of Ezra
reworks the message of Cyrus. And all this reworking ends up allowing for
people to donate gifts to the Temple, and for the ancient Temple artifacts to
be restored to their original location. This is not a gift, but a
restoration of order.

HH: You're right; I cited the wrong verse. But the return of the temple treasures did amount to a gift. Cyrus was not obliged to return these things from the temple, for they were the spoils of war:

Ezra 1:7 King Cyrus himself brought out the vessels of the house of the LORD that Nebuchadnezzar had carried away from Jerusalem and placed in the house of his gods.
Ezra 1:8 King Cyrus of Persia had them released into the charge of Mithredath the treasurer, who counted them out to Sheshbazzar the prince of Judah.
Ezra 1:9 And this was the inventory: gold basins, thirty; silver basins, one thousand; knives, twenty-nine;
Ezra 1:10 gold bowls, thirty; other silver bowls, four hundred ten; other vessels, one thousand;
Ezra 1:11 the total of the gold and silver vessels was five thousand four hundred. All these Sheshbazzar brought up, when the exiles were brought up from Babylonia to Jerusalem.

HH: Plenty of Israelite treasures were taken by other kings, even temple treasures, and never returned:

2Kings 14:14 He took all the gold and silver and all the articles found in the temple of the LORD and in the treasuries of the royal palace. He also took hostages and returned to Samaria.

1Kings 14:25 And it came to pass in the fifth year of king Rehoboam, that Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem:
1Kings 14:26 And he took away the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king’s house; he even took away all: and he took away all the shields of gold which Solomon had made.

2Kings 12:18 King Jehoash of Judah took all the votive gifts that Jehoshaphat, Jehoram, and Ahaziah, his ancestors, the kings of Judah, had dedicated, as well as his own votive gifts, all the gold that was found in the treasuries of the house of the LORD and of the king’s house, and sent these to King Hazael of Aram. Then Hazael withdrew from Jerusalem.

2Chr. 25:23 And Joash the king of Israel took Amaziah king of Judah, the son of Joash, the son of Jehoahaz, at Beth-shemesh, and brought him to Jerusalem, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem from the gate of Ephraim to the corner gate, four hundred cubits.
2Chr. 25:24 And he took all the gold and the silver, and all the vessels that were found in the house of God with Obed-edom, and the treasures of the king’s house, the hostages also, and returned to Samaria.

2Kings 18:16 At this time Hezekiah king of Judah stripped off the gold with which he had covered the doors and doorposts of the temple of the LORD, and gave it to the king of Assyria.

HH: Sometimes the Israelite king, without compulsion, even gave away such treasures:

1Kings 15:18 Then Asa took all the silver and the gold that were left in the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king’s house, and delivered them into the hand of his servants: and king Asa sent them to Ben-hadad, the son of Tabrimon, the son of Hezion, king of Syria, that dwelt at Damascus, saying,
1Kings 15:19 There is a league between me and thee, and between my father and thy father: behold, I have sent unto thee a present of silver and gold; come and break thy league with Baasha king of Israel, that he may depart from me.

2Kings 16:8 And Ahaz took the silver and gold found in the temple of the LORD and in the treasuries of the royal palace and sent it as a gift to the king of Assyria.

HH: Yes, Cyrus did restore the idols and gods of the various nations taken captive by the Babylonians to their temples, but he was under no compulsion to do return treasures. They were a gift. Nebuchadnezzar had taken the temple treasures in part for the expense and effort undertaken to quell Zebediah's rebellion after he broke covenant with the king of Babylon.

The book of Ezra, written probably at least close to two centuries
after Cyrus, is not a very good historical book for the period. It could
have
easily incorporated a text relating how Cyrus restored order, whether or not
the Temple artifacts were indeed historically restored, and whether wealthy
Jews in the Persian empire felt the need to go to a poor province in the
far corner of the empire,

HH: This is a theological position, too: skepticism about biblical reality. The words of Ezra 1 are supported to some extent by the testimony of Chronicles 36.

and donate their gold to a poor reconstructed
Temple who was competing for the favor of the Yahweh worshippers in the
various reaches of the empire with at least two other Temples in the early
Persian period -- the Samaritan temple and the Elephantine temple. None
of these people were thinking of the history 500 years hence, after the
Persian empire would be conquered by the Greeks and they in turn by the
Romans, or after the Temple would be rebuilt by Herod, or this new rebuilt
grandiose Temple be destroyed. It is important to keep in mind that
Haggai's prophecies are for these people. Haggai himself is one of these
people. To truly understand the meaning of the prophecies it is their
reality
and their theological beliefs that must be used.

HH: God's prophecies are for humanity, and they sometimes go in advance of their fulfillment by centuries or ages.

Sure, you can reinterpret
Haggai, and find symbolism everywhere you want to look, and explain his
prophecies according to your theological world. There's nothing wrong with
that. But that's no longer Haggai's prophecy -- it is your prophecy.
Haggai's
message is different, as is his reality, his theology, his concept of what a
Messiah his, his concept of eschatology. With this reality in place, Haggai
is speaking of the second temple, not of a time thousands of years later.

HH: The Jews of the first century saw the world shaking predicted by Haggai as an event still in the future. So just because you think the ancient people had to look at things in a certain way does not mean that they did. Here is the first century Book of Hebrews:

Heb. 12:25 See that you do not refuse the one who is speaking; for if they did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we reject the one who warns from heaven!
Heb. 12:26 At that time his voice shook the earth; but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven.”
Heb. 12:27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of what is shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb. 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us give thanks, by which we offer to God an acceptable worship with reverence and awe;
Heb. 12:29 for indeed our God is a consuming fire.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard








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