Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

The point was that a hebrew up to the 7th century could quite easily have 
pronounced the word by merely viewing the consanantal order.
As the language died out no-one with that ability remains.

-----Original Message-----
From: Awohili AT aol.com [mailto:Awohili AT aol.com]
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 6:28 PM
To: Read, James C; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
 
 
I presume you mean that "biblical" Hebrew "died," not Hebrew.  And I  think 
the pronunciation of YHWH went out of general use long before the 7th  
century 
CE.  This is the first I've heard that Muslims had anything to do  with it.
 
Solomon Landers
 
In a message dated 08/02/2005 9:42:36 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk writes:

However,  hebrew died and the muslims took over Isreal and so the 
pronunciation of the  verb was 
lost, as was the pronunciation of every  word.






This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.


This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
>From peterkirk AT qaya.org  Tue Aug  2 13:36:10 2005
Return-Path: <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.link77.net (kastanet.org [208.145.81.89])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A43A4C008
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Tue,  2 Aug 2005 13:36:10 -0400 
(EDT)
X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp
X-ExternalMail: External
Received: from [213.162.124.237] (account peter_kirk AT kastanet.org HELO
        [10.0.0.1]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8)
        with ESMTP-TLS id 80437361; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:36:09 -0400
Message-ID: <42EFAF14.5060605 AT qaya.org>
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:36:20 +0100
From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US;
        rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511
X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vadim Cherny <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>
References: <20050801221232.9EBC14C006 AT lists.ibiblio.org>
        <045d01c59766$3c7c88e0$0100a8c0@vadim> <42EF77B1.9070806 AT qaya.org>
        <052301c59782$b85bbe10$0100a8c0@vadim>
In-Reply-To: <052301c59782$b85bbe10$0100a8c0@vadim>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:36:10 -0000

On 02/08/2005 17:53, Vadim Cherny wrote:

>>>In the verb hypothesis, some transliteration of he would be expected, and
>>>the word could resemble Ieue, albeit remotely.
>>>In my hypothesis of 1-2-3ms suffixes, I could imagine Iaoe, but not Ieue,
>>>unless in rapid pronunciation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I wonder if you would accept Iaoue as sufficiently close to your "Ieue".
>>After all, upsilon on its own is improbable as Greek routinely used the
>>omicron-upsilon diphthong for the sound "w". And don't forget that
>>Clement's form was (probably) Iaoue.
>>
>>
>
>I think, Iaoue is very clearly matres lectionis YHW + ue for h.
>
>
>
This is nonsense. UE NEVER represents he. And UE is not a unit in Greek.
If you divided it up as I-A-OU-E representing Y-H-W-H, you might be on
to something, although I don't think this is right either.

>>Theodoret's Iabe is a variant of
>>Iaoue from a time or dialect when the "w" sound had changed to "v",
>>which by then was the pronunciation of Greek beta.
>>
>>
>
>I think of Iabe as literal, not phonetic transliteration. Letters, not
>sounds transliterated. Letter-for-letter, YHWH for I(H-A)(W-B)(final H-E).
>
>
>
Do you have any evidence for this being not phonetic except that it
doesn't give the result you want?

>>So, Clement's and Theodoret's evidence supports "the verb hypothesis".
>>
>>
>
>ihie (verb of YHWH) to ieue, and ieue to Iaoue are two very far-fetched
>suppositions, making the ihie-Iaoue tranformations highly improbable, in my
>opinion.
>
>
>
These are indeed far-fetched, but they are not my suppositions. My
theory is a verb form Yahwe(h), a regular formation (either qal or
hiphil) from root HWH, which was transliterated into Greek IAOUE
according to the regular Greek transliteration rules. Well, it is hardly
my theory, for it was that of Gesenius in the 19th century. And in all
of the long discussion here I have seen nothing to indicate that the
great Gesenius got it wrong.

--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/