Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

Dear Vadim,

do you acknowledge that some modern languages have Y,W and H consonant sounds?
Do you also acknowledge that ancient Hebrew had them?
Do you also acknowledge that ancient Greek did not have them?
Do you also acknowledge that the limitations of the syryllic alphabet are not 
a consideration in the matter although they can be used to illustrate why 
certain
things happen during transliterations?

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Peter Kirk
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 2:36 PM
To: Vadim Cherny
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
 
On 02/08/2005 14:20, Vadim Cherny wrote:

> ...
>
>>I don't understand this. The yod MUST be a consonant because ALL Hebrew
>>words start with a consonant.
>>    
>>
>
>If it looks like a duck, and flies like a duck, then before the law it is a
>duck. Iod is pronounced as a vowel in 3ms FT, and there is no evidence
>whatsoever that it ever was pronounced as consonant, at least as 3ms FT
>prefix.
>If you are inclined to dwell into this issue, it is my belief that iod in
>3ms FT is mater lections derived from he in 3ms nouns. A similar process
>made iod 2fs FT suffix where we could expect he.
>  
>

No Hebrew word, that is ZERO!, starts with a mater lectionis. (I take 
the u- copula as simplified from an original wu-.) Yod can be either a 
consonant or a mater lectionis. At the start of the word it cannot be a 
mater lectionis. Therefore it is a consonant. (If it looks like a duck, 
and flies like a duck, then before the law it is a duck.)

A suffix is a suffix and cannot be separated off as part of a word. If 
the final -iy suffix were to be written separately, it would need to be 
prefixed with alef, as in the word 'iy = "island, coastland".

...

>>On the other hand, there is evidence which I posted
>>earlier today for a final -e vowel sound.
>>    
>>
>
>The problem is, no other hypothesis explains the pronunciation Iao. If YHW
>is not a compound of matres lectionis, but a regular word, he must have been
>pronounced.
>
>  
>
In the Greek or Latin spelling Iao, the initial I is not a vowel but a 
consonant, according to the regular rules of Greek and Latin spelling. 
Therefore Iao would be pronounced Ya-o, two syllables starting with a 
consonant, and with a zero divider which may replace an original "h" sound.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

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>From patrick AT clubgraves.com  Tue Aug  2 10:31:15 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
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The reason I ask is that I have seen Ieue, presented as Ieu-e and rendered
or interpreted "The Self Existing".

-patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: Vadim Cherny [mailto:VadimCherny AT mail.ru]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:29 AM
To: Patrick J. Emsweller; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation


In the verb hypothesis, some transliteration of he would be expected, and
the word could resemble Ieue, albeit remotely.
In my hypothesis of 1-2-3ms suffixes, I could imagine Iaoe, but not Ieue,
unless in rapid pronunciation.

Vadim Cherny

>
> Vadim, could this Iao and Iaoa, be also Ieu or Ieue?
>
> -patrick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vadim Cherny [mailto:VadimCherny AT mail.ru]
> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 4:46 PM
> To: Patrick J. Emsweller
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
>
> Final he might be semantically non-essential to begin with, a late suffix
of
> result.
> Iaoa could easily become Iao.
>
> Vadim Cherny
>
> > Maybe a bit of a curve ball here but maybe just a "seed
> thought".........any
> > one notice how many letters are in IAO?
> >
> > -patrick
> >
> > RE: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciationStart with possessive suffixes: i, a,
u.
> > For this or that reason, not essential here, supportive consonants were
> > introduced: i, ca (ta), hu. Suffix consonants lack semantical
importance.
> > Also note that 3ms hu-au-o, giving rise to yhu-yho-yao variants.
> >
> > There is a noun "an," essence. Ani (or, with non-essential suffix
> consonant,
> > anoci) is "my essence," abstracized as I. Ata is anta, "thine essence"
> that
> > became "thou." Anacnu is similarly "our essence." Different etymologies
> were
> > proposed for hu, but for our case only u is important, 3s possessive
> suffix,
> > making hu some word emasculated into he and 3s possessive suffix u.
> >
> > Iao would be literally "my, thine, his" (i-a-u, or later i-a-o), but I
> > speculate that Iao stands more generally for "I, thou, he" epitomized by
> the
> > possessive suffixes.
> >
> > Vadim Cherny
> >
> > > To the best of my knowledge I,You,He would be:
> >
> > )aNoCHiY)THuW)
> > and I really struggle to see how you turn that into a IAO
transliteration.
> >
> > RE: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation> I am interested to know how you come
> > about such a radical
> > theory. You must have more reason than a philosophical idea of a
society.
> >
> > Well, only "I, thou, he" could be pronounced Iao. The verb cannot.
> > Plural suffixes are construed similarly. Duality ai (later - plural
> e-ei-im)
> > means "thou, I". Abstract plural -o (-ot) is -au, "thou, he." This makes
> > sense: using 1s, the most personal relation, for duality, and 3ms, the
> > remotest, for abstract plurality.
> > Suffixes are vowels only. Consonants are semantical devices, vowels -
> > morphological. Suffix consonants change between nouns and verbs, but
> vowels
> > persist. Suffix consonants (caf 2s nouns, tav 2s verbs) served perhaps
to
> > write down suffixes without matres lectionis, or perhaps to avoid
> post-tonic
> > gemination in penultimates-stressed nouns. This is a separate topic.
> > YHWH cannot be a meaningful word, like the verb, since no one could
> possibly
> > declare a well-attested verb a great secret with unknown pronunciation.
> >
> > > How would you account for the forms YaH, YaHu/YaHo with your model?
> >
> > he could be mater lectionis for 2ms suffix -a. Incidentally, he is also
> > "supportive consonant" of 3ms -hu-au-o. Thus, yau=yhh=yh with mappiq.
> > yhu=yau with mater lectionis
> > yho=yao=yau with 3ms hu-o
> >
> > > How would you account for the transliterations IABE, IAOUAI etc.?
> >
> > Iabe is literal, not phonetic transliteration; waw-beta.
> > Iaouai is plural form of Iao, modeled upon plural Elokim.
> >
> > > Are there any patterns ANE cultures that led you to this hypothesis?
> >
> > Of course, Judaism is unique.
> >
> > > Is there any internal evidence in the TaNaKH which supports your
theory?
> >
> > Depending on how you read it. Milgrom's interpretation, I believe, is
> > supportive.
> >
> > Vadim Cherny
> >
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