Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

I completely agree with the multiple semantic usage of the word Torah 
but gave a short answer for the sake of brevity. However, one thing 
you have conceded is that at one point it had the usage of being a 
proper name for the scroll of Moshe'.

What date do you give for the general acceptance of such a usage?

Your reasoning of a date for the SP has been duely taken on board and is 
by no means conclusive and does not adequately demonstrate that each kingdom
did not have its own Torah. Deuteronomy 17:14-15 shows that the future kings 
were to make their own copies of the law. While the two kingdoms enjoyed 
relative periods of freedom to the point where they were able to share 
resources in military campaigns, only at a far stretch of the imagination 
can you imagine one king saying to the other 'Let's get together to make 
our copies of the law. We can add some old legends around this small law book 
and get the people to accept it all by saying that Moshe' wrote it. If we 
are both in on it then it will be difficult for people to refiute it.'
It is highly evident that each king would have made his own copy and 
furthermore such copies would have had to have measured up to the tests of 
the sopherim who employed methods of counting to ensure the authenticity of 
copied texts.

I have taken on board your examples of Egyptian literature and in fact Moshe' 
'was instructed in all the wisdom'. However, one thing you neglect to take 
into consideration is that he had to spend 40 years as a lowly shepherd 
before 
Yahowah would accept him as the deliver of his people. In fact, after 40 years
of training Moshe's outlook on life had changed so drastically from the 'I've 
just killed an Egyptian guard. Now's the time to strike!' to the meek and 
humble 
'I can't speak to Pharaoh! My tongue gets tied!'. Hence, Egyptian patterns of 
prose 
are hardly the standard to go by for the normal way of Yah's prophets. In 
fact, 
the standard is Moshe' himself who out of respect for and desire to glorify 
his 
god rather than himself, chose to write in the 3rd person in order to detract 
attention from himself. This is a pattern we see copied in many other prose 
books. 
e.g.Joshua,Judges,Samuel.
This pattern of humility reached its apex with the gospel of John who even 
refuses 
to make mention of his own name on many occasion. While in the *prophecy* of 
revelation 
he immediately identifies himself and makes heavy usage of the first person, 
as does 
also the prophecy of Jeremiah and of Ezekiel.

Another mistake we often make is to speak of the Torah as five books. This 
idea was 
only ever first introduced in the LXX and is an abstract separation, placed 
at convenient
points that made the gigantic scroll more easily manageable. Instead of 
asking why there is 
a first person direct discourse amid a third person narrative in the book of 
Deuteronomy 
we would do better to ask ourselves why is there a first person direct 
discourse amid 
a third person narrative at the end of the Torah.
I,personally,do not find this a difficult concept to handle and have used 
this style on 
many occasion myself. As, I am sure, have many other authors.

Your claims that tradition does not unanimously confer authorship to Moshe' 
are based 
on very relatively new ideas, which were highly contravertial viewpoints and 
so this 
argument cannot possibly be taken seriously. If you had evidence that such 
was the case 
before the exile then I would happily consider your arguments here but for 
the moment 
I see them as worthless for the discussion at hand.

Anyway, back to the original question. Soon what basis do you retain that 
Moshe was 
not the original author apart from the difficulties we are having with 
attestation?
-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Heard, Christopher
Sent: Sat 7/30/2005 2:06 AM
To: b-hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Author of the Torah
 
James,

First, thank you for your kind consideration my comments re the "Torah
of Moses" in Joshua 8.


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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
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Chris wrote:
 and the fact that Hananiah has to bring  
instructions for these festivals from outside Egypt may in fact imply  
that the Elephantine Jews did not have a copy of the Torah. I would  
say that the evidence from Ezra-Nehemiah and Elephantine, read  
generously, suggests that the Torah was nearing its canonical form in  
the 5th century, but not there yet.
end qote.

So in preference of well acknowledged you base your dating on 'may imply'.

I am interested in hearing your model that would explain how the nation 
of isreal was duped into believing the scroll was authored by Moshe'.

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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Author of the torah
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Hi b-hebrew,

Jim West
>> If you suspect that tradition is sufficient to establish truth then, in 
>> some quarters, tradition teaches
>> that Moses wrote the King James Version of the bible and that is the 
>> version Jesus used too.  But > that is idiocy isnt it.  And yet, it is a  
>> tradition believed and adhered to.

Dave Washburn
>Must we endure such caricatures?  I thought this kind of guilt by absurdly
>remote association was beneath you, Jim.

Now I am  curious.  Does Jim really have a name of a known someone who asserts
as above ?  is there a real associate to have association with, or is Jim 
playing an
awkward game of pseudo-reducto-ad-absurdum.

Understand, I ask this seriously, as someone who is quite familiar with the 
views of
the various King James Bible proponents, such as Thomas Holland and David 
Cloud
and, yes, Peter Ruckman.  And I am assisting the Wikipedia article on same.

And I have never run into this view he mentions.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
Queens, NY

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/