Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

Exile & Post Exile

Did Daniel,Ezra and Nehemiah hold the Torah to be Moshe's work?

Compare:
Dan9:13 with Lev26:16
Dan9:11 with Deu28:15,31:17
Neh8:1 with Lev27:34
Neh8:2 with Lev23:24
Neh8:6 with Deu27:26
Neh8:8 with Lev10:11
Neh8:9 with Lev23:24, Num29:1
Neh8:18 with Lev16:29,23:36
Ezra3:1 with Lev16:29
Ezra3:2 with Exo20:24, Exo40:29
Ezra3:3-6 with Exo23:16,29:38,29:42, Num28:3-4,28:23,29:1,29:12-13,Lev23:24
Ezra7:6 with Deu4:5,5:1,28:1

How long would it take you to read the direct discourse starting at Deu 5 ?
Apparently it took Ezra (a sopher) 6 hours 'from daybreak till noon'. And he 
has more to say for a further 7 days. Was he really that slow a reader???

Doesn't it seem strange that the Isrealites were familiar with festivals 
which 
were only penned about 50 years later? 
And doesn't it seem stranger that they evidently accepted these as given by 
Mose'???

This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
>From k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk  Sat Jul 30 02:09:09 2005
Return-Path: <k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail58.messagelabs.com (mail58.messagelabs.com 
[193.109.255.35])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F0ED4C00B
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:09:09 -0400 
(EDT)
X-VirusChecked: Checked
X-Env-Sender: k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk
X-Msg-Ref: server-7.tower-58.messagelabs.com!1122703747!90615486!1
X-StarScan-Version: 5.4.15; banners=kingston.ac.uk,-,-
X-Originating-IP: [141.241.2.18]
Received: (qmail 3597 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2005 06:09:07 -0000
Received: from kuexim2.king.ac.uk (141.241.2.18)
        by server-7.tower-58.messagelabs.com with SMTP;
        30 Jul 2005 06:09:07 -0000
Received: from [141.241.17.18] (helo=KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk)
        by kuexim2.king.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DykWx-0001dB-H8
        for b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:09:07 +0100
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:09:07 +0100
Message-ID: 
<6B84A53BD25BCA46B070A05DD8C8C9F813A3EE AT KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Author of the Torah
Thread-Index: AcWUssECHwdOgBjWRL2O2JJZPoCJwQAAFAedAASZNK8AASPVxQ=From: "Read, 
James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.6
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Author of the Torah
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:09:09 -0000

Did the author of Chronicles hold Moshe' as the author of the Torah?

Compare: 

2Chron23:18 with Exo29:38, Num28:2
2Chron24:6 with Exo30:12-16
2Chron24:4 with Deu24:16
2Chron30:16 with Lev1:5
2Chron30:13 with Num9:10-11
2Chron30:15 with Exo12:3
2Chron34:14-35:1 with Exo12:11,Lev23:5,Num9:2
2Chron35:6 with Exo12:42
2Chron35:11-12 with Lev1:5-6,3:5,9,11,14,16

This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
>From furuli AT online.no  Sat Jul 30 04:30:50 2005
Return-Path: <furuli AT online.no>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail47.e.nsc.no (mail47.e.nsc.no [193.213.115.47])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B934C00B
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:30:50 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: from ttttt (ti200710a080-16008.bb.online.no [85.164.190.136])
        by mail47.nsc.no (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j6U8UmFa008489
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:30:49 +0200 
(CEST)
Message-ID: <000601c594e0$fee84ff0$ea81fea9@ttttt>
From: "Rolf Furuli" <furuli AT online.no>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
References: 
<011e01c59310$9c88d4a0$6800a8c0@hp><000d01c593a2$6915f980$ea81fea9@ttttt><42E996FD.5000408 AT twcny.rr.com><002901c59407$f6f59a20$ea81fea9@ttttt>
        <42EA6C36.4050301 AT twcny.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:30:51 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Verbs, text-segmenting and clause-types
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:30:50 -0000

Dear Brian,

I know you have a great knowledge of classical Hebrew and that you have
worked diligently with the grammar for many years. Therefore, your
suggestions deserve to be carefully considered. I see that your system is
consistent, and several of your points ara attractive. I can not exclude
your "libretto"-view. But it of course  very difficult to find clear
evidence for it. My concerns, however, relates to the application of this
view to Bible translation.

The German Hebraist Walter Gross once used the phrase: "Die Flucht ins
Präsens" ("the flight to present"). This means, that when Bible translators
have problems with the translation of verbs (e.g. different conjugations
seem to have the same reference), they often end up with using present.
Because present in English and other languages can refer to the past and
future, the reader must find the temporal reference. My view of Bible
translation is that the translators should refrain from exegesis as much as
possible and instead whenever possible make a text that gives the reader the
opportunity to do the interpretation. There may be situations where the
temporal reference is ambiguous in the original text and where the
translators will preserve this ambigousness. But in most instances it is the
duty of the translator to make decisions regarding the temporal reference of
the verbs and convey these to the readers. In other words, the reader should
be able to in an easy way to find the temporal reference of a passage in an
English Bible translation.

You choose present to a great extent, not because any "flight," but because
you want to convey your views of the nature of poetic texts in Hebrew.
Nonetheless, the use of present in your translation probably will have the
same effect on the readers as Die Flucht ins Präsens, they simply do not
understand the temporal reference.  You agree that the setting of Isaiah
52:13-53:12 is future, and in my view, verbs in such a setting should be
rendered by English future, so the readers immediately see the temporal
reference. To use present to such a great degree as you do is not as
confusing for the reader as the the zig-zag renderings of modern
translations with past, perfect, present, and future renderings. But still
the text is much easier to understand for the reader when simple future is
used.

Best regards

Rolf Furuli
University of Oslo


----- Original Message -----
From: "B. M. Rocine" <brocine AT twcny.rr.com>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Verbs, text-segmenting and clause-types




Rolf Furuli wrote:

> I have acouple of questions:

I thought it was the job of everyone on the list to ask *you* questions!
  ;-)

>
> 1. Do you view the whole text as referring to the future, i.e. do you see
> each action as an action where reference time comes after the deictic
> center?

Interpretively, of course.  That is, it is prophetic.  But
linguistically, no.  The vision is "right there," "right in front of
them," so to speak.

I think, in both the translation and interpretation of Hebrew poetry,
not enough value is given to the text as a libretto.  I use the term
libretto loosely.  What I mean is that the style of a lot of Hebrew
poetry reflects an oral or performance tradition, perhaps as the
writers' unconscious preservation of a text's oral origin or as a
conscious attempt to honor the oral tradition.

I suspect many of these texts, Isaiah 52:13-53:12, were first performed
and later written.  It is often challenging to understand libretti in a
written-only medium.  They are stripped of tone of voice, facial
expression, gesture, musical or dramatic accompaniment, and all the
context that the performance arena can bring to a performance.  The
Slavic _guslar_ (bard) Halil Bajoric said of his story, "It has to be
said like that."  What he means is that the delivery of the song is
inseperable from its message. The _guslar's_ story is never only the
words; it is also the performance.

When it comes to Hebrew poetry, I think we need to explore the idea of
re-constructing the performance.  I think a text like the one we are
examining in Isaiah is begging us to reconstruct the performance by its
use of verb forms that are stringed together in a somewhat unusual way.

A skillful Hebrew _guslar_, as I believe the prophets and poets of the
Hebrews were, could deliver sections of our passage from Isaiah that use
a preponderance noun sentences and X-qatal clauses, such that he
describes a vision that is before him and his audience at the moment he
speaks but tells of things to come.  "hinneh!" he says to his audience.
  Do they see what he sees?  He will help them.

>
> 2. You imply that sentence initial YIQTOLs do not always express the
> sentiments of the speaker. If my understanding is correct, is there a way
> to
> know when it does and when it does not?
>

Actually, I would say that sentence-initial yiqtols rather reliably
express sentiments of the speaker.  It is the X-yiqtols that are
ambiguous.  If you would like to hear some ways to eliminate the
ambiguity with X-yiqtols, I will do it in another post.

Sometimes in Hebrew poetry, an element in a sentence has elided.  (The
elided element may be found in the parallel clause.)  As a result, a
yiqtol form may surface as the first word in its clause when notionally
it is actually preceded by an (elided) element.  In other words, even
though such a yiqtol appears to be first in its clause, it is not.

Shalom,
Bryan Rocine


> Best regards
>
> Rolf Furuli
> University of Oslo