Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

What are you talking about?
I have objectively considered the evidence considered and have even 
altered my understanding of the texts quoted on the basis of the 
evidence provided.

The least you could do is have the same humble attitude and give 
thought to my answers!

What do you take issue with? 
You also do well to remember that it is you who is going against 
hundreds of years of Jewish tradition and not I, so you would do 
well to defend your position and not just condescendingly tell me 
to go read someone else's book. I'm interested in hearing primary 
sources *not* the highly works of self-appointed 'scholars'.
If you are able to adequately refute my answers, which seem adequate 
to me then your reasoning is obviously flawed.

Do you believe that two warring kingdoms contributed in a conspiracy 
to fool two opposing nations into believing that Moshe wrote a scroll 
that he did not?
Do you believe that a nation would all decide that they came out of 
slavery in Egypt for no apparent reason?
Don't you think that some of the grandparents who were alive at the 
time would have said 'No we didn't! We were nomads from the desert
and we just decided to make it all up so that we could convince you 
yougsters to go and kick some canaan butt so that we could have some 
fertile land for a change.'???
Don't you think that your views are just a little paranoid and are 
currently not backed up by anything more than the fact that you 
cannot accept that *sometimes* people in the past were actually 
honest, especially when they believed they would be destroyed for 
bearing a false witness!???
So please tell me! What in my model do you refute?

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim West [mailto:jwest AT highland.net]
Sent: Sat 7/30/2005 12:28 AM
To: Read, James C; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Author of the Torah
 


Read James C wrote:

>However, this is by no means a conclusive proof that Moshe did not 
>author the rest of the Torah as Hebrew tradition holds.
>The fact that there is so little difference between the Torah of the 
>Yehudans and the Samaritan Torah shows that they both held the same 
>tradition that they held sacred enough to copy it scrupulously.
>After the death of Solomon the kingdom divided and started a conflict 
>which ended in the level of animosity that we read about in the gospels
>between the Yehudans and the Samaritans.
>Does it seem scholarly that two opposing kingdoms who considered each 
>other to be worse than the 'gentiles' would have collaborated in a 
>conspiracy to fool the two nations into believing that Moshe was the 
>original author of the Torah???
>
>I think not!!!
>
>This clearly shows that in the days of Solomon, before the separation 
>of the two kingdoms, the Torah as we know it was already well accepted 
>and canonised by the Isrealite nation as a whole. Thus there is no doubt 
>to what scroll Nehemiah was referring to in his post-exilic writings.
>
>The only question that remains is:
>Why the different use of the term 'torah' in the book of Yehoshua and 
>the book of Nehemiah?
>

etc.  all snipped for the sake of space.

There are so many presuppositions here- so many unfounded ideas and 
unhistorical datum that there's no way to answer point by point without 
writing a book.  I would only say that almost every line is based on a 
priori notions that will not hold water.  If I might be so bold as to 
recommend Philip Davies little book- Whose Bible is it Anyway.  It's an 
excellent place to start.

Jim

-- 
D. Jim West

Biblical Studies Resources -  http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
Biblical Theology Weblog -  http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com


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>From peterkirk AT qaya.org  Fri Jul 29 20:44:29 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Author of the Torah
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On 29/07/2005 22:39, Heard, Christopher wrote:

>Oops, no. Brain hiccup. Please substitute "285 BCE"--I am thinking of
>the tradition that the LXX project was begun while Judea was under
>Ptolemaic rule--and adjust other dates accordingly.
>
>
>
Well, this is not in fact a basis for moving forward to this date the
latest time of composition of the Torah. For James made one very good
new point, which was that the Samaritan Pentateuch is nearly identical
to the Torah, which proves that the more-or-less final form of the Torah
predates the split between the Jews and the Samaritans. Now we don't
know the precise date of this. The Samaritan tradition dates it as far
back as the time of Eli. The book of Kings suggests the time of
Hezekiah. And the Elephantine letters gives clear evidence that by 500
BCE there were separate communities with separate Temples, and so very
probably with separately preserved versions of the Torah. So, this
becomes quite a stong argument for the Torah being complete at least
before the Exile. Perhaps the last time at which it could have been
shared between Judeans and Samaritans was the time of Josiah, when
Samaria seems to have come temporarily under Judean control. So I would
suggest that as the latest plausible date for the Torah in more or less
its final form.

--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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