Biblical Hebrew Forum

["wattswestmaas" <wattswestmaas AT eircom.net>]

Dear Liz, I have been following many of the discussions and really would
like to respond to this:
----------The only reason I can see is Christological.--------
NO the reason is that one can not treat Isaiah in isolation.


-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Lisbeth S. Fried
Sent: 24 May 2004 17:01
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole


Dear Vadim,
I have concluded that the description of Cyrus
in the Cyrus songs matches the description of the
person in Isaiah 42:1-7; 48:14-16; 49:1-6;
51:4-5; 55:4-5; 61:1-3a (which I also assign to Second
Isaiah). Why add a savior when Cyrus is already
in the text? The only reason I can see is Christological.
Best,
Liz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of UUC
> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 10:22 AM
> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole
>
> Dear Liz,
>
> But if you concede that Isaiah was written over the prolonged
> time, why do you attribute description of every savior to Cyrus?
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Vadim
>
>
> > You don't think that these books were written over hundreds
> of years
> > with later authors adding to earlier ones? For you, every word is
> > original, part of the UR-Text?
> > Liz
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of UUC
> > > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 1:27 AM
> > > To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole
> > >
> > > Dear Liz,
> > >
> > > > > > It is Cyrus again in Isaiah 61 tho.
> > > > > Yeah? How about vs.5,6?
> > > > Dunno.
> > > > Cyrus in 61:1-4.
> > > You cannot pick and choose whatever verses may be related
> to Cyrus
> > > and disregarding the others, while stating that Isaiah wrote of
> > > Cyrus as savior.
> > > There are clearly verses that don't fit your hypothesis.
> > >
> > > > > > And it is Cyrus in 42
> > > > > vs.2,3?
> > > > Who else could it be?
> > > Not proclaiming on streets?? Not breaking a reed??
> > >
> > > > > , in 48:14ff, in 49
> > > > > obviously not in vs.3,4?
> > > > I omit "Israel" in 3.
> > > Omit it also from the discussion with Abram, and you would get
> > > Persians a chosen nation
> > >
> > > > Why do you translate clei as clay?
> > > > They are usually silver and gold. Check out the uses of
> the term
> > > > in TANAK.
> > > Any particular place regarding which you can state this for sure?
> > > The root meaning is related to clay.
> > >
> > > > My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether he has actually
> > > sinned or
> > > > not. He bears the responsibility.
> > > No! Sinned himself or not, he bears guilt, a precondition of
> > > responsibility.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Vadim
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > (not in 50, unless he is
> > > > > > the servant mentioned in 50:10)
> > > > > So not everywhere?
> > > > Pretty much every where.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Clei are used in Ezra to refer to the vessels from
> > > YHWH"s temple.
> > > > > > They are used in the Mesha inscription to refer to
> the vessels
> > > > > > from YHWH's temple in Moab.
> > > > > Yes, but they are clei vessels, which wouldn't be
> taken by the
> > > > > occupants, unless our understanding of the then material
> > > culture is
> > > > > way off the mark.
> > > > >
> > > > > >Their sin becomes
> > > > > > his responsibility. It's a legal obligation, not a
> moral one.
> > > > > In Judaism, the whole concept of mishpat is centered
> > > around zedek;
> > > > > remember the story of the two pillars. No
> responsibility without
> > > > > guilt. The high priest actually shares the guilt of his
> > > people, not
> > > > > some guiltless responsibility, like in criobolium (well,
> > > > > possibly even there). They are one body before the Almighty.
> > > > My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether he has actually
> > > sinned or
> > > > not. He bears the responsibility.
> > > > Best,
> > > > Liz
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Vadim
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Not to delve in the correct translation of every
> > > word, here it is:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 10. He has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all
> > > the nations.
> > > > > > > All the ends of the earth have seen it! -- the saving
> > > > > power of our
> > > > > > > God!
> > > > > > > 11. Depart! Depart! Get out from there!
> > > > > > > Touch no unclean thing.
> > > > > > > Get out from the midst of it! Purify yourselves, you
> > > who carry
> > > > > > > YHWH's clei (earthen vessels, or weapons).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > prepare to be the holy warriors, in a sense
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Clei are used in Ezra to refer to the vessels from
> > > YHWH"s temple.
> > > > > > They are used in the Mesha inscription to refer to
> the vessels
> > > > > > from YHWH's temple in Moab.
> > > > > > What is your problem in seeing them here? Why bring in some
> > > > > extraneous
> > > > > > thing when the whole point of Deutero-Isaiah is to get the
> > > > > people to
> > > > > > leave Babylon and go to Israel to rebuild the temple and to
> > > > > > install YHWH"s vessels in it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Isaiah is comprised of many themes, with various
> > > interpolations.
> > > > > > > That he speaks about Cyrus chapters ago, doesn't mean he
> > > > > speaks of
> > > > > > > him here. How ouwl you weigh 52:13-15? As ugly Cyrus?
> > > > > > I don't know.
> > > > > > It is Cyrus again in Isaiah 61 tho.
> > > > > > And it is Cyrus in 42, in 48:14ff, in 49 (not in 50, unless
> > > > > he is the
> > > > > > servant mentioned in 50:10), and in 61, as I said.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On the matter of shared guilt, I think you miss my point.
> > > > > > On the day of atonement, the high priest purges the
> > > sanctuary on
> > > > > > behalf of himself and on behalf of the community. He is
> > > > > carrying out
> > > > > > his responsibility for their sin. This doesn't mean that he
> > > > > didn't sin
> > > > > > himself or that he did. It doesn't deal with that at all.
> > > > > > Their sin becomes his responsibility. It's a legal
> obligation,
> > > > > > not a
> > > > > moral one.
> > > > > > When Truman said "the buck stops here," he meant he was the
> > > > > > one who was ultimately responsible, not that he was guilty
> > > > > > (and not that he wasn't guilty).
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > Liz
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > >
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