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  • From: flux <flux AT sourcemage.org>
  • To: sm-discuss AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [SM-Discuss] My resignation
  • Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 20:56:25 +0900

Sukneet Basuta (sukneet AT gmail.com) wrote [12.07.21 09:46]:
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 3:44 PM, David Kowis <dkowis AT shlrm.org> wrote:
> > What should I do differently? Should I tell you how to do everything?
> > Should I start smashing glasses and just merge all the things, and risk
> > breaking the systems of many people? Should I just do all the work
> > myself? I simply don't have time to do all the work. I can't. If you
> > want a leader who does all the work, I'm fine with that, no hard
> > feelings. (really, this isn't some passive-aggressive thing)
>
> I don't expect you to do all the work, but I do expect the project
> lead to lead. i.e. stick your head in when its needed, outline what
> needs to be done, etc. I don't mean this as a personal attack, but I
> haven't seen you do too much of that. But, maybe you do a bunch behind
> the scenes or on IRC that I don't see and I'm just blowing hot air.
>
> > For the most part, people have done spell updates, and I've watched
> > commits and complaints about things not being done, but nobody steps up
> > to say, "If this meets <X> will that be good enough to get it merged?"
> > And then when compliance is met, they would push to get it merged. Often
> > someone says, "I made this branch and it works for me." Then someone
> > else will post "Nope, it doesn't." And it often dies right there.
>
> I feel that this where the project lead or grimoire lead, or some
> other lead, should step in and say that. I don't exactly have
> experience working in large groups, so maybe I just don't know how
> these things work.
>
> > The most recent glibc 2.15 branch should probably be merged in, it looks
> > like due diligence has been done with that, but I'm not a dictator. If
> > others have problems with merging it, we should discuss it. I think it's
> > probably okay, but I'd like to personally knows which spells are known
> > to compile and work against that version of glibc. I'm somewhat nervous
> > about "Works for me" without any other specific information. I don't
> > particularly want to break peoples boxes.
>
> I agree, but imo we don't have enough people testing out branches to
> go with something other than "Works for me".
>
> > That being said, yeah we need people to do the hard work, and then ask
> > for reviews of it, and we need to settle on what is allowed in for big
> > changes like this.
>
> > Cauldron scripts work, just nobody has bothered to take the time to
> > build another iso. You want one? build it. Ask flux_control for help,
> > he'll be more than happy to explain you how to do it. Make it, show that
> > it installs for people, and we'll make it official.
>
> If that's addressed to me, I don't really care about Cauldron. IMO
> chroots > cauldron. If Cauldron is still the official method to
> install Source Mage, then I guess we do need a new one, but given that
> we have fairly recent chroots, I don't think it's currently necessary.
>
> As I stated, I'm working on the stuff I think is important. I've spent
> the past month or two trying to build up a test box so I can get
> devel-xorg merged into test, but I've run into way to many broken
> spells (I'm hitting yes to everything). If you think my attention is
> better spent elsewhere, let me know.
>
> Hopefully this email didn't make me come across as a complete bastard.

tl;dr: I agree with David, and complaining is harmful to the distro.
Pointing out that something needs to be fixed *and* offering to help fix
it is quite helpful, and hasn't been happening.

Grimoire issues are first and foremost the job of the grimoire lead to
take care of. If people try to specifically resolve things with the
grimoire lead and that goes nowhere, then they should bring the issue up
with the project lead. This is how things generally work in any
hierarchical organization, so it's not like we're doing/expecting
anything special. As a result, it really isn't David's job to be poking
his head into day-to-day grimoire issues, or to outline what needs to be
done within the grimoire. If the grimoire lead isn't doing these things,
and people have tried working with the grimoire lead to get it fixed and
it still isn't, then it could be David's job to try and find a fix for
the grimoire lead.

For some of the branches, people have tested them and there are specific
problems that have been pointed out and not resolved, and that's why
they aren't merged. You yourself point out this fact for devel-xorg. For
the most part, if a branch isn't merged there's a real reason for it
beyond "no one is bothering to merge it". There are branches that don't
get enough testing, just like there is pretty much some of everything
that doesn't get enough testing, but that doesn't fault the process
itself. For spells like glibc, though, I think something more than
"works for me" is necessary. If it takes a year to get someone to test
it and see that it worked all along, so be it. If you want to run the
version in the branch on your own machines and it isn't merged, you're
welcome to do so. But merging it means that we are guaranteeing to *all*
of our users that it will work, and glibc is a crucial spell. Many more
people will complain magnitudes of order more if their systems blow up
from a single glibc update than the entire collective complaining about
all branches not being merged. As David said though, it seems that one
is getting proper testing and attention, but the same idea applies for
other spells: "works for me" is only meaningful if you're the only
person that will use the spell.

Your statement "I don't really care about Cauldron" is I think
representative of what David was exactly referring to when he said that
people complain but no one steps up to do the work, not specifically
anything to do with Cauldron, but rather, it's a general sentiment of "I
don't care about anything others are doing if it doesn't directly
involve me." The distro is drowning in apathy right now. We have a basic
problem of if someone isn't already working on something, they aren't
going to work on it, but they will complain that no one else is either.

Just FYI: Cauldron != ISO. Somehow this is what a lot of people end up
believing, but Cauldron is about any and all methods of installing SMGL.
Also, the recent chroots are recent, but are not nearly the same level
of QA chroots that Cauldron handles. They may be quite good, they may
not -- I've addressed this issue before though. However, it seems that
either people don't care about quality, or they simply remain silent.

Also, neither Cauldron nor Sorcery are dead. They are both still being
committed to and worked on. They get committed to less often, but there
are several reasons for this, some of which are: they are both one-man
teams (not by choice), the work done in them is a lot more complicated
than a spell update so the work itself takes much longer to do, and
(AFAIK -- I only know my own situation for sure) Jaka and I have been a
lot busier with life in general recently and aren't able to commit as
much time to development as we used to.

I really agree with what David said. Additionally, constant complaining
is just as hurtful to the distro as the apathy. It's quite discouraging
to try to do work and make changes, only to have everyone claim the work
your doing doesn't matter, is already dead, etc. etc. just because you
aren't committing according to their desired schedule. Meanwhile, I have
seen no one volunteer to fix or help with something at all (literally at
all) in the past 3 months (and possibly more).

--
Justin "flux_control" Boffemmyer
Cauldron wizard and general mage
Source Mage GNU/Linux
http://www.sourcemage.org

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