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  • From: Sukneet Basuta <sukneet AT gmail.com>
  • To: SM-Discuss <sm-discuss AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [SM-Discuss] My resignation
  • Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 22:02:44 -0400

I wasn't going to reply again, but I have a few issues about what Vlad said.

On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Vlad Glagolev <stealth AT sourcemage.org> wrote:
>> > Fork?
>> > New leaders ballot?
>>
>> Possibly.
>
> Give me at least 3 reasons, and I'll fork it, personally.
>
> But first of all tell me: how much the fork will change? Why do you
> think it'll be possible to get the process going after the fork, if
> you're not ready to solve several issues just now? By whom? New
> uber-progressive team? Come on, we live in real world, and know how
> simple things work.

I wasn't referring to forking. I don't think forking would do much
good for a distro as small as Source Mage.

> You all know about our team-size. Yes? Yes. Then, as I've been repeating
> for the last years, if you see the bug -- just fix it; stop complaining
> about not-tested&&not-merged-cause-of-that branches, because NOONE WILL
> DO THIS FOR YOU (as per our team-size as told above). STOP THIS, REALLY.

I think I already do. I fix bugs for spells I never really use. In
fact, that is the case for the vast majority that I fix. I generally
try to test every depends & config option I can as well.

> STOP bumping basic spells, which brakes 50-75% of the system, STOP
> following fedora or arch in this up-to-date RACE. IT'S POINTLESS since
> it hurts the distro's stability (arch stability is awful cause of that,
> just look into theirs forums; redhat bugtracker is also full of bugs
> cause of non-stop package update and architectural changes -- I visit
> them both really often and know the situation; if you don't trust me --
> try to switch to arch and keep it in sync).

I have been using Arch Linux for longer than I have Source Mage, and
it's still the main distro on my laptop. I can honestly say I've never
had any stability problems with it. I think its a great example of how
a distro can be bleeding edge and still be stable. It doesn't have
per-package configurability though, so it is much simpler to maintain.
Also, I wouldn't say its rock-solid like Debian or CentOS.

When do you think its okay to update a spell? To me, it makes the most
sense to use the most current version of an application, since they
generally have bug-fixes and such.

> STOP using the distro as
> developer just only for your own single box, forgetting about tens or
> hundreds of other users who also use it and face a ton of problems
> cause of your bumps or not-tested commits, and test as much as possible
> in every spell instead of checking only those options which you care about.
> THIS IS NOT DEVELOPMENT, BUT SELFISHNESS.

I test spells to the best I can (though admittedly I'm not as thorough
as I should be, but that's a problem I have in general). It comes down
to not-committing or pushing what I have. Also, I thought the reason
for the test grimoire is for wider testing.

> Instead, spend this time for developing solutions to solve serious
> issues that stop further rapid development. Bring up TEN virtual
> machines and test several REALLY BIG PROBLEMS or branch-merges
> (which could also be marked as really big problems) instead of bumping
> spells on your box, which increases number of new bugs TWICE OR TRIPLE
> times.

As I said, I'm working on devel-xorg, but even when I'm done it won't
still won't be tested up to your standards.

> The last time, me and Eric (at least I heard much from him about this)
> have spent a lot of time for fixing stuff just to make it work. Try to
> do the same, please. Try to really use the distro, try to use it not only
> for chit-chat or coding with vi. Select any DE/WM and test it in
> different setups. Select any
> database/webserver/fs-tool/just-any-program and make sure it compiles,
> installs and works at least on 2 arches with and without turned on and
> turned off options. Look at and check dependencies and flags it has missing.

I try to do that for every spell I update. It also sometimes bugs me
when this isn't done.

> Like Justin said, we could roll out new stable ISO every week instead of
> having new glib2 2.32.1.. -> ..10 and friends versions. Just noone cares and
> continues to trash priorities which digs the distro deeper and deeper.

IMO, part of the issue is that there is no one communicating what
these priorities are. Perhaps you have these discussions on IRC or
somewhere where I'm not, but I don't hear about it. I'm working on
what I think is important. If that is not the case, I do not know what
our priorities are.

I understand your push for stability over bleeding edge, but I want to
run bleeding edge software. Part of the reason why I like Source Mage
so much (and what originally drew me to the distro) is that software
is updated very quickly. I can honestly say I would not have touched
Source Mage if it had non-current software, and, honestly, I would
leave if it did not. Don't get me wrong, Source Mage is the closest
thing to an ideal distro for me and I would prefer not to leave.

I always thought that the compromise was the test and stable
grimoires. I used to think the idea was that test was to test
up-to-date software, and not guaranteed to be stable. Why bother
having a stable branch otherwise?

Also, since I feel that a lot of these "Stop complaining and fix it"
comments are aimed at me--whether or not they actually are--I want to
state that the only real complaining that I've done (other than in
this thread) is about needing a better way to handle branches and a
little bit about sorcery (which I'm a bit weary of touching, as I will
probably break some things, but I will get around to it once I feel
the grimoire is in a decent state). I try to fix all the other issues
I have, if I can. I'm sorry if I am getting too defensive.




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