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  • From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Pernicious, infectious memes--OT
  • Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 22:20:34 +0100


Steven, what I have learned over a good many years is that reality is often so complex that it can not be caught in an over simplistic dichotome approach. (black or white, yes or no, either this or that) I have seen enormous discussions about whether your character is determined by nurture OR nature while obviously both are in play.

It is the same here; "health paradigm" VERSUS "disease paradigm" is doomed to bring an intelligent understanding of complex reality. The Prof drinking a jar full of cholera microbes is a nice story but it does not convince me since I would be prepared to repeat it as a stunt. And I do have a few health issues. I am not even a 100% healthy for a start.
Explanation : a billion microbes sounds like a lot but that is still less than a milligram of microbes. Most will be killed by stomach acid and the few that get through into the small intestine will find a microbial ecosystem there that has more than a million (probably more like a trillion) times more other microbes in it in a few hundred different species.

Now bacterial ecosystems are most often regulated by "census quoring". All different species release specific messenger molecules in their environment enabling other bacteria to sense how their own and how other species are doing in the mixing bowl consisting of all bacteria. In other words, Vibrio cholera specimens reaching the intestines are aware that they are an infinitesimally small minority.

As a rule pathogenic bacteria only turn nasty, releasing toxins, when they become aware that they are plentiful enough and able to get the upper hand. In other words they don't start a war until they know they can win. And they know because of the ratio of messenger molecules from their own and other bacteria.

A once off drink of cholera solution is therefore quite safe unless one is desperately unlucky. And in all this luck and chance play a role as well making it even more complex.

People develop cholera through drinking chronically infected water. The first few days will not make many sick but eventually microbes that reach the intestines will find an environment that has some messenger molecules of their own species and that will make them bold enough to start multiplying faster and pump out more messenger molecules themselves that will encourage others of their tribe that follow. Only when there are enough of them will one develop cholera disease because then toxins are released that force the cells of the intestine to pump water, salts and nutrients into the lumen of the intestines.

This is the story for cholera. There are many other messenger molecules that will for instance warn pathogens that the immune system of the host is on to them and that they better move to safer areas of the human body such as the nervous system, or change the antigen molecules on their coats to remain undetected. Sometimes it tells new entering parasites that there is no more room for them and that they better leave without doing damage.

Of course, all this does not mean that you are wrong but only that reality is more complex than you thought. There is no need for a flue vaccination if you have sufficient vitamin D coursing through your blood for instance. But if you got infected with a new virus you never had contact with before this might not be enough.

And I do happen to agree with Francis Chaboussou's research results into plant health. Residues of the chemical industry do indeed put one on the never ending thread mill of needing to buy more chemicals that will aggravate the problems. And yes, thankfully permaculture is questing for real answers.

John

Toby,
Many doctors I have had the privilege to learn from talk about the health of
a plant or animal as the determining factor in disease, not necessarily the
infective agent. In agricultural theory Albrecht's work on soil health as
it relates to plant and animal health makes some very strong arguments for
a health paradigm versus a disease paradigm. He was forced out of academia
because of his unconventional broad based referencing to other disciplines
in his work as a soil scientist. Francis Chaboussou's research into plant
health is another eye opener. He was forced out academia because he proved
that the toxic rescue chemistry industry was essentially creating the
disease and insect infestation through improper fertilization in order to
sell the solutions; insecticides, herbicides, fungicides, at great cost to
the farmer and our biosphere. Thankfully Permaculture is questing for real
answers!
Keep it coming!
Steven
-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Toby Hemenway
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 4:08 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: [permaculture] Pernicious, infectious memes--OT

Okay, I'm still thinking about this because these arguments are used to
promote such dangerous memes (a form of infectious virus), and I love the
way logic demolishes them. Here's what's up with, for example,

an infection is always a secondary illness; infections arise after tissue
has been damaged, by malnutrition or intoxication.

This relies on circular logic: "a virus can only infect a damaged organism,
because if an organism gets infected, it must be damaged or that would not
happen." It assumes what it intends to prove, and you can't get out of that
one until you see it is circular. It's certainly true that healthy organisms
tend to get fewer infections. This is because their immune systems work much
better. But it does not then follow that an organism must be unhealthy in
order to be infected. It does not undermine the fact that viruses alone are
often sufficient to cause infection, and mountains of evidence exist to show
this. The only evidence against it are some thought experiments ("then why
does X happen?") and some circular reasoning like that above. The main
reason that viruses do not routinely infect healthy creatures is because
viruses have been in an arms race against the immune system for eons. The
immune system is full of machinery to block viral and bacterial infection.
Viruses are f ull of machinery specifically designed to evade the immune
system (like, they've stolen receptors from the immune system so they can
neutralize immune boosting hormones; they wouldn't do that if they weren't
infectious). Sometimes one wins, sometimes the other. To claim that not
getting an infection is a sign that viruses don't infect is to confuse
statistics with function. Viruses would not contain that machinery if
evading the immune system--infecting a host--were not critically important
for them. And the immune system would not mount a huge response, every time,
to viral challenge if viruses by themselves were not a big threat to
organisms; that machinery would not exist.

In my experience, virologists tend to be smarter than the people denying the
viral model, and they understand well-reasoned arguments much better.

Many people cannot develop or make it through chains of reasoning like this
and so they fall for cleverly crafted zombie arguments, like those of the
Creationist/Intelligent Design propagandists. Our school system specifically
discourages critical thinking so that we will be compliant and susceptible
to corporate and government memes ("humans aren't in charge of climate"
being a good example), and one side effect is that crackpot theories like
"viruses don't cause infection" and "life requires a designer" get far more
traction than they would in an educated society. We owe it to ourselves, the
planet, and our children to learn how to think critically.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com



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