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  • From: "Jeff Ezell" <eztech@pdq.net>
  • To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: RE: [MSAR] Guns in SAR
  • Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:06:25 -0500

Jorene,

Thanks again for another of your great and informative posts. This is a
complicated subject and one that often gets political and/or emotional for
some. Contributions like yours and many others are what makes this list such
a valuable resource.

Jeff Ezell
Houston, TX
Us Regional Search Dogs
US Search Affiliates
Texas EquuSearch
jeff@usrsd.org

-----Original Message-----
From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Jorene Downs
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 1:09 AM
To: Mounted search and rescue
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Guns in SAR


From: "Una Smith" <una@lanl.gov>
> An MSAR-riders subscriber asked me this:
>
> >Some time ago you discussed the requirement that your team leader
> >carry a pistol. [...] Do you have any
> >information about the legality, etc - pros cons

In CA, SAR personnel are now under the Posse Comitatus Act, where
(disregarding all the military intervention implications related to the Act)
able-bodied civilians over the age of 18 can essentially be commandeered
into aiding law enforcement. In CA SAR we are *expected* to aid law
enforcement upon request. (By law, there is actually a fine of $50 to $1000
for refusing.) But while that covers our legal "represent the county"
status, it doesn't address the issue of weapons directly.

Laws can be different from state to state, and from one county to another,
regarding owning and carrying weapons ... much less as related to SAR. If
there is no specific written legal status regarding volunteer SAR personnel
and weapons, there may be "local / department policy" that has potential to
change and adjust according to evolving local needs.

In various parts of the country there are also MSAR teams who may respond to
state / national parks or forests ... where they may have their own laws
regarding weapons. In that situation the local agency in charge of SAR (in
CA that is the county Sheriff's Office) needs to have an understanding with
the park/forest agency regarding what is acceptable for SAR volunteers.

Locally we have substantial Wilderness SAR in vast parks and forests ...
areas where law enforcement also finds marijuana gardens, etc., that are
sometimes defended by armed guards. Department policy is for every team in
the backcountry to have a Deputy on that SAR team, and those SAR personnel
with concealed weapons permits often carry a weapon. If a particularly
promising search area has a known/suspected garden, only SAR Deputies are
assigned to that area's search team. (Most of them are on our local version
of the SWAT Team and carry additional weapons in their vehicles.) Our SAR
Deputies always go armed. And the potential for a guarded garden is why the
SAR Deputies wear camo instead of high visibility SAR colors.

> In my state, all SAR volunteers are civilians. Although some of us
> may be certified and licensed to carry a gun in our "real jobs", it
> is certainly not routine for SAR. Those who do carry a gun do so
> as civilians. My unit has a requirement that each team leader carry
> a gun. [...]
> Its purpose? To put down a horse, should one become so ill or badly
> injured that it cannot be saved [...]

Some MSAR response regions are rather small / rather accessible, where the
local policy for MSAR may prohibit wearing a weapon {for putting down a
horse) since vet services would be fairly close, as would areas with
population. Others have vast wilderness areas or very remote response areas
where policy may encourage wearing a weapon or even require it. Local policy
may vary according to who is in office.

I'm comfortable with weapons and know how and when to use mine. (Ex-cop - 8
years many years ago.) Probably 1/2 of local volunteer MSAR carries a
handgun on Wilderness SAR, and several volunteers on the ground teams always
carry in the backcountry. I have no objection to the local policy to include
a Deputy with each Wilderness SAR team since the SAR Team Leader may be
educated for SAR but have no background/training in law enforcement. If the
situation suddenly appears dangerous - like stumbling on a previously
unknown garden - that Deputy would be automatically in charge, with the
safety of the Team the priority.

So far, to my knowledge, the only shots fired during a local SAR was at a
search helicopter - unarmed chopper, unarmed pilot and crew. But the guy
defending the garden from the rescue helicopter was sure sent into flight
mode when that ARMY Blackhawk crew regrouped and went on the attack using
the Penetrator (large rescue seat designed to drop into a tree canopy and
"create" an access hole) on their chopper winch ... and dropped it
repeatedly chasing the fleeing shooter. ;)

> >Anything you could help with (even your opinion based on experience)
> >will be a big help.
>
> My experience has been that in the field a gun is more trouble than
> not; it requires careful management at all times. And I think that
> someone who does not handle and use a gun on a routine basis has no
> business carrying one on a SAR mission.

I agree that many people don't have the training or inclination to carry a
weapon ... and in that case it makes no sense to me for that person to have
possession of a weapon during a SAR or any other time. If the related law
enforcement agency allows or requires a weapon for any civilian SAR
personnel, IMO that agency has the responsibility (and liability!) to ensure
the individual has appropriate training. Also, I hope that anyone packing a
sidearm in SAR has desensitized their horse for shooting from his back ...

I grew up hunting and handling weapons. My local NRA went into shock decades
ago when this 8yo girl passed the Jr Hunter Safety program with an almost
perfect test score and outshot most of the local boys. <g> Since I have the
weapons and law enforcement training, experience, etc., I feel quite
comfortable packing a sidearm or other weapons as appropriate. For many
years I've been tempted to put up a sign at the front of the property
claiming "Insured by Smith & Wesson." ;)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Jorene Downs
Tulare Co, CA
SAR, MSAR, Swiftwater Rescue, US&R,
Hasty Team, ICP
www.CEOates.com/sar


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