permaculture

[Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>]

Hi Steve, I'm simply saying this is a topic that deserves care, not that it
shouldn't be discussed responsibly. Quite the contrary. See my comment
again.

Wes brought up the topic in light of ethics in practicing permaculture,
which is very valid. However, the topic is being built upon
including dubious references to catholic priest scandals. List onlookers,
or searchers of Google, could skim the text and assume there is a massive
scandal going on in PDCs all over the place. I think this topic deserves
more care than that, for everybody's sake. We sabotage ourselves when not
being careful.

Jason

On Thursday, July 21, 2016, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com');>> wrote:

> Yes Jason..I'm probably very close to Toby on this view and experience. I
> married a fellow student ? I have been accused of sexual harassment while
> being totally oblivious to the sense of it ?  Like any subject no matter
> how assumedly sensitive it may be it still needs to be discussed rather
> than hidden behind doors. Do we stop to think of the myriad of views of
> this subject from the various social constructs of this world. Social
> morals are a diverse subject. Dare we look behind the veils of muslim
> societies of the world. There are many different layers there. American
> values are different to English. Australian different to New Zealand how
> many more are there ?
>
> We all grow up learning, accepting and being guided in different values. We
> have all made mistakes and we have all learnt from them. Thats a norm.
> Perhaps the common denominator is more about maintaining civil society at
> all levels without going overboard, falling off the rails, evolving
> extremes or casting one out . The great strength about the entire global
> Permaculture family is its diversity and its inclusiveness, lets just
> celebrate that and be mature about it. We are all big enough to stand on
> our own two feet and retaliate when we feel uncomfortable. Or be polite and
> say no thanks. Or just move to another environment. Seems we do it all the
> time in this entity. Seems we are, well some of us, too quick to shut the
> doors and put on the blinkers. I'm more familiar with keeping eyes and
> doors open without blinkers or prejudice and maintain communication with
> all n sundry be they charlatans or hypocrits, saints or siners, liars,
> thieves, cheats or scholars. But I'm still a little reserved about
> pedafiles...time will tell
> Steve Hart,
>
> On 21 July 2016 at 18:22, Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I would like to see everyone be careful with this subject. Nobody has
> said
> > anything about child abuse in permaculture (to compare permaculture to
> the
> > catholic church scandals is unfathomable) and I actually think it was
> > deeply irresponsible for Wes to mention sexual harassment and disengage
> on
> > the subject...some might call that sabotage. Sexual harassment could be
> an
> > issue with select permaculture teachers, but needs to be addressed in a
> far
> > safer/constructive/professional environment than this public listserv.
> Some
> > of us are talking off-list about how to have this conversation more
> > constructively in the permaculture scene. Just because the topic hasn't
> > generated copious activity on this list doesn't mean it's not being
> > discussed or taken seriously by many in the permaculture community, the
> far
> > majority of whom are not on this listserv.
> >
> > In the spirit of caring for people,
> > Jason
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:52 PM, scrooge McDuck <declan@planetmail.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Guidelines would be great, and a central PDC approving body would be
> > > better, because that could introduce standards & conditions to the PDC,
> > or
> > > withdraw approval.
> > >
> > > I seem to unfortunately be the lists expert on this topic.
> > > In Ireland, a 95% Catholic (nominally) country we had Clerical child
> > abuse
> > > scandals in the 1990s by the hundreds, institutional abuse of kids and
> > > single mothers, It seemed a new priest was arrested each week for
> years.
> > > See, for example
> > > http://www.childabusecommission.ie
> > > Look for findings & download the PDF. We see that power corrupts, &
> > > absolute power corrupts absolutely. They are still ferreting out abuse
> > over
> > > decades in each individual dioces
> > >
> > > Then came my experience as an elder, and we went through a problem
> phase
> > > for some years, though it was much better handled..
> > > --
> > > Declan Moriarty
> > > Sent from my Android tablet with mail.com Mail. From Dublin, Ireland..
> > > On 21/07/2016, 01:13 joao pedro goncalves <joaovox@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> From all feedback, this makes most sense:
> > >>
> > >> "I wish you luck and advise you to give up now."
> > >>
> > >> Give up organising structure to address the issue, yet a few
> > >> guidelines/guiding questions could be formed to frame information
> shared
> > >> on
> > >> this list.
> > >>
> > >> After Moriarty and Millison get more feedback and is challenged it
> will
> > be
> > >> easier to understand those points
> > >> and see the pattern that will help think about many other related
> > topics.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Linking a few previous topics:
> > >>
> > >> 1 - what can we do to change the other /their software/attitude
> leading
> > to
> > >> sexual abuse, permaculture hijacked, stilling pdc's, design failure,
> or
> > >> genocide ?
> > >>
> > >> 2 - or, what does such news of other's behavior, and possible systemic
> > >> effects, impact on my attitude/actions/decision making and thoughts in
> > >> everyday life?
> > >>
> > >> Is it possible to change criminal behavior /ethics of others by
> design?
> > >> Perhaps, not.
> > >>
> > >> But it is possible to address a few of the systemic effects that
> other's
> > >> people behavior have triggered.
> > >>
> > >> Information about specific criminal behavior/ethics of others might
> have
> > >> impact on our decisions and the direction of our lives.
> > >>
> > >> My apologies, the post on "petition/addressing genocide" I've posted
> was
> > >> really poor in instructions to suggest we apply systems thinking on a
> > "not
> > >> trivial" topic..
> > >> I should have not posted it as it is.
> > >>
> > >> Sectors is about addressing "the other" that triggers systemic effects
> > (on
> > >> our land harware and community software), close and also farway
> (because
> > >> these days systemic effects travel fast), sun, wind, wildlife, flood,
> > >> fire,
> > >> thieves(yes a few portuguese still from the foreigners farm garden),
> > war,
> > >> oil prices, aid to earthquake, etc
> > >> - we have harware/physical structures and biology to deal with such
> but
> > >> also software/ethics and decision making and systemic effects
> awareness.
> > >>
> > >> If we regard permaculture as a systems thinking approach to secure
> basic
> > >> human rights everywhere (food, water, house, health, security, human
> > >> integrity and dignity) - how come there is something off topic ?
> > >>
> > >> If it appears to be off topic then the challenge-question by default
> is
> > >> "how do we apply ethics awareness and systems thinking on this topic
> so
> > >> that this understanding will help us secure basic human rights ?"
> > >>
> > >> What are going to be the systemic effects of people being informed on
> > >> examples of:
> > >> sexual abuse, permaculture hijacked, stilling pdc's, design failure,
> or
> > >> genocide ?
> > >>
> > >> We are already aware of some systemic effects of:
> > >> self-sacrifice, permaculture excellence, honoring authorship, design
> > >> yields
> > >> and criminals becoming humans ?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> What books helps us engage thoughtful obervation using the ethics in
> > >> permaculture?
> > >> Examples on ethics of permaculture being honored and not?
> > >> What will help think the world with "permaculture ethics lenses"?
> > >>
> > >> Are you aware of the work of Gregory Bateson (biologist and systems
> > >> thinker)? An example:
> > >> http://www.ralphmag.org/batesonP.html
> > >> Book "Steps to an ecology of mind".
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Joao
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> <
> > >>
> >
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> > >> >
> > >> Sem
> > >> vírus. www.avast.com
> > >> <
> > >>
> >
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> > >> >
> > >> <#m_5239843383938199980_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 4:14 PM, scrooge McDuck <
> declan@planetmail.net>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Yes, Toby's contributions are always valued.
> > >> > I've been keeping my own counsel on this topic, because I hold non
> > >> > standard views on sexual matters. I view the "New Morality" as the
> > "Old
> > >> > Immorality," and try to live by Bible principles. In today's Westerm
> > or
> > >> > 'modern' world, moral standards are unwelcome in the main, both
> sexes
> > >> can
> > >> > act like sexual predators and virginity is about as highly valued as
> > >> acne.
> > >> > It's a disadvantage of youth, to be cast off as part of maturing.
> The
> > >> > reported behaviour of Bill Mollison was certainly unhelpful, and a
> > very
> > >> bad
> > >> > example of leadership. But where couples meet varies. I certainly
> > >> wouldn't
> > >> > try to limit it to the false 'night life' scene.
> > >> >
> > >> > Before my illness, for 15 years I was an elder in my faith and
> policed
> > >> our
> > >> > high moral standards. We investigated cases as a committee of 3, and
> > >> acted
> > >> > judicially, issuing counsel, reproofs, public reproofs, or even
> > >> expelling
> > >> > members. We have a common belief system, a final authority whose
> word
> > >> was
> > >> > accepted as law, scriptural commands vetoes and examples, detailed
> > >> written
> > >> > instructions for processing casers, regular updates to published
> > >> material,
> > >> > with all hairs split exactly and finely and we investigated and
> > >> implemented
> > >> > those standards for sexual issues in our congregation. Accusations
> of
> > >> child
> > >> > abuse have to be reported to head office, and were not to be kept
> > >> local. We
> > >> > would act under instruction in those cases. This whole area is part
> of
> > >> the
> > >> > regular teaching programme at our meetings. *We need all of this
> > support
> > >> > to police the standards properly. *
> > >> >
> > >> > You guys are predominantly highly principled but low in religious
> > >> values,*
> > >> > and you have none of the above support.* Frankly, for a headless
> > >> movement
> > >> > like Permaculture without even a central respected authority to call
> > the
> > >> > shots, imho you haven't a hope of implementing a meaningful
> control. I
> > >> > wish you luck and advise you to give up now. Think of this: How do
> you
> > >> > handle a complaint where a girl alleges compulsion or unfair abuse
> of
> > >> > position in a sexual encounter where alcohol was involved, the male
> > >> > Permaculture teacher denies it and claims everything was consensual;
> > you
> > >> > investigate, and their accounts differ; it's a swearing match. She
> > >> > transpires to be a poor but sincere witness and gets upset; He is
> more
> > >> > confident and adamantly denies it, but is found innaccurate or
> > >> untruthful
> > >> > in some circumstantial details. There is a conflict of evidence, and
> > >> there
> > >> > are no witnesses.
> > >> > If you can't figure out a way of handling the above instance, and
> how
> > to
> > >> > implement that worldwide when the powers that be might be in a
> > different
> > >> > land, I advise again: the 'Stubbs Gazette' approach is all you can
> > >> > reasonably do. You absolutely have no idea how dispiriting,
> > depressing,
> > >> and
> > >> > personally draining handling these cases can be. Someone who handles
> > one
> > >> > certainly won't want to handle another. One useful thing would be to
> > >> > encourage men on a PDC to report predatorial sexual activity by PDC
> > >> > Teachers/lecturers. If a guy is preening himself in front of the
> > women,
> > >> > other men can spot it a mile off. Banning one-on-one encounters is
> > >> > another option, but I have no idea how you would implement any of
> > those.
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards
> > >> >
> > >> > Declan Moriarty
> > >> > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 12:09 AM
> > >> > *From:* "Lawrence London" <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> > >> > On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Toby Hemenway <
> > >> toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > I would very much like to see a safe, non-accusatory, open
> > discussion
> > >> of
> > >> > > this issue, in which specific cases were brought up, especially by
> > >> those
> > >> > > involved in them, and where there is an unprejudiced evaluation of
> > >> what
> > >> > > kind of harm has been done in the permaculture community by real
> > >> cases of
> > >> > > behavior.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > The proposal I made for a turn key system utilizing a forum and
> > website
> > >> > would give you exactly what you need and provide complete privacy.
> If
> > >> you
> > >> > want me to repost thai I will. If you want me to create these
> > resources
> > >> for
> > >> > you I will, for free but prefer some remuneration if at all posible,
> > but
> > >> > definitely for free just get it done and maintained.
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks for your contributions to this list, Toby, they are very much
> > >> > appreciated.
> > >> >
> > >> > Let me know if I can help further.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > permaculture mailing list
> > >> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> João Gonçalves
> > >>
> > >> "Ao comprar ou consumir de forma ética também está a intervir na
> > paisagem
> > >> e
> > >> a decidir quem tem trabalho."
> > >>
> > >> "Eating is an agricultural act" - "Comer é um acto agrícola" - Wendell
> > >> Berry
> > >>
> > >> "Permacultura (Cultura Permanente) é um sistema ético de design
> > >> ecológico."
> > >>
> > >> (+351) 96 96 80 009
> > >> Chão Sobral - Oliveira do Hospital - Serra do Açor - Portugal
> > >> http://ecotrabalho.com/
> > >> http://permacultureglobal.com/users/902-joao-goncalves
> > >> http://chaosobral.org/index_pt.htm
> > >> http://www.youtube.com/joaovox
> > >> http://agricultura-familiar-tradicional.blogspot.pt
> > >> https://picasaweb.google.com/joaovox
> > >> http://picasaweb.google.pt/uniprochaosobral
> > >>
> > >> Para descobrir:
> > >> Documentário "Alface" na Aldeia das Amoreiras
> > >> http://vimeo.com/58999047
> > >> Permacultura na Serra do Açor - Portugal
> > >> http://permaculturinginportugal.net/blog/
> > >> "Comida que nunca acaba" / Permacultura no Malawi
> > >> http://www.neverendingfood.org/
> > >> Centro de Ecologia Integral
> > >> http://www.integralecology.org
> > >> Nyumbani - Kenya
> > >> http://www.nyumbani.org/about-us
> > >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >>
> > >
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > www.realearthdesign.com
> >
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kia ora Ehoa
>
> [image: Picture]
> *Steve Hart*
> *Ecology Architect*
> *Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
> Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape Architecture
> and Systems Ecology.​*
> Skype: tipenemanawa
> Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
>
> Permaculture Global Design:
> www.permacultureglobaldesign.org
>
> The Permaculture International College
> www.permaculturecollege.eu
> https://permaculturecollege.academia.edu/SteveHart
>
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