permaculture

[Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>]

I would like to see everyone be careful with this subject. Nobody has said
anything about child abuse in permaculture (to compare permaculture to the
catholic church scandals is unfathomable) and I actually think it was
deeply irresponsible for Wes to mention sexual harassment and disengage on
the subject...some might call that sabotage. Sexual harassment could be an
issue with select permaculture teachers, but needs to be addressed in a far
safer/constructive/professional environment than this public listserv. Some
of us are talking off-list about how to have this conversation more
constructively in the permaculture scene. Just because the topic hasn't
generated copious activity on this list doesn't mean it's not being
discussed or taken seriously by many in the permaculture community, the far
majority of whom are not on this listserv.

In the spirit of caring for people,
Jason

On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:52 PM, scrooge McDuck <declan@planetmail.net>
wrote:

> Guidelines would be great, and a central PDC approving body would be
> better, because that could introduce standards & conditions to the PDC, or
> withdraw approval.
>
> I seem to unfortunately be the lists expert on this topic.
> In Ireland, a 95% Catholic (nominally) country we had Clerical child abuse
> scandals in the 1990s by the hundreds, institutional abuse of kids and
> single mothers, It seemed a new priest was arrested each week for years.
> See, for example
> http://www.childabusecommission.ie
> Look for findings & download the PDF. We see that power corrupts, &
> absolute power corrupts absolutely. They are still ferreting out abuse over
> decades in each individual dioces
>
> Then came my experience as an elder, and we went through a problem phase
> for some years, though it was much better handled..
> --
> Declan Moriarty
> Sent from my Android tablet with mail.com Mail. From Dublin, Ireland..
> On 21/07/2016, 01:13 joao pedro goncalves <joaovox@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From all feedback, this makes most sense:
>>
>> "I wish you luck and advise you to give up now."
>>
>> Give up organising structure to address the issue, yet a few
>> guidelines/guiding questions could be formed to frame information shared
>> on
>> this list.
>>
>> After Moriarty and Millison get more feedback and is challenged it will be
>> easier to understand those points
>> and see the pattern that will help think about many other related topics.
>>
>>
>> Linking a few previous topics:
>>
>> 1 - what can we do to change the other /their software/attitude leading to
>> sexual abuse, permaculture hijacked, stilling pdc's, design failure, or
>> genocide ?
>>
>> 2 - or, what does such news of other's behavior, and possible systemic
>> effects, impact on my attitude/actions/decision making and thoughts in
>> everyday life?
>>
>> Is it possible to change criminal behavior /ethics of others by design?
>> Perhaps, not.
>>
>> But it is possible to address a few of the systemic effects that other's
>> people behavior have triggered.
>>
>> Information about specific criminal behavior/ethics of others might have
>> impact on our decisions and the direction of our lives.
>>
>> My apologies, the post on "petition/addressing genocide" I've posted was
>> really poor in instructions to suggest we apply systems thinking on a "not
>> trivial" topic..
>> I should have not posted it as it is.
>>
>> Sectors is about addressing "the other" that triggers systemic effects (on
>> our land harware and community software), close and also farway (because
>> these days systemic effects travel fast), sun, wind, wildlife, flood,
>> fire,
>> thieves(yes a few portuguese still from the foreigners farm garden), war,
>> oil prices, aid to earthquake, etc
>> - we have harware/physical structures and biology to deal with such but
>> also software/ethics and decision making and systemic effects awareness.
>>
>> If we regard permaculture as a systems thinking approach to secure basic
>> human rights everywhere (food, water, house, health, security, human
>> integrity and dignity) - how come there is something off topic ?
>>
>> If it appears to be off topic then the challenge-question by default is
>> "how do we apply ethics awareness and systems thinking on this topic so
>> that this understanding will help us secure basic human rights ?"
>>
>> What are going to be the systemic effects of people being informed on
>> examples of:
>> sexual abuse, permaculture hijacked, stilling pdc's, design failure, or
>> genocide ?
>>
>> We are already aware of some systemic effects of:
>> self-sacrifice, permaculture excellence, honoring authorship, design
>> yields
>> and criminals becoming humans ?
>>
>>
>> What books helps us engage thoughtful obervation using the ethics in
>> permaculture?
>> Examples on ethics of permaculture being honored and not?
>> What will help think the world with "permaculture ethics lenses"?
>>
>> Are you aware of the work of Gregory Bateson (biologist and systems
>> thinker)? An example:
>> http://www.ralphmag.org/batesonP.html
>> Book "Steps to an ecology of mind".
>>
>> Regards,
>> Joao
>>
>>
>>
>> <
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>> >
>> Sem
>> vírus. www.avast.com
>> <
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>> >
>> <#m_5239843383938199980_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 4:14 PM, scrooge McDuck <declan@planetmail.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Yes, Toby's contributions are always valued.
>> > I've been keeping my own counsel on this topic, because I hold non
>> > standard views on sexual matters. I view the "New Morality" as the "Old
>> > Immorality," and try to live by Bible principles. In today's Westerm or
>> > 'modern' world, moral standards are unwelcome in the main, both sexes
>> can
>> > act like sexual predators and virginity is about as highly valued as
>> acne.
>> > It's a disadvantage of youth, to be cast off as part of maturing. The
>> > reported behaviour of Bill Mollison was certainly unhelpful, and a very
>> bad
>> > example of leadership. But where couples meet varies. I certainly
>> wouldn't
>> > try to limit it to the false 'night life' scene.
>> >
>> > Before my illness, for 15 years I was an elder in my faith and policed
>> our
>> > high moral standards. We investigated cases as a committee of 3, and
>> acted
>> > judicially, issuing counsel, reproofs, public reproofs, or even
>> expelling
>> > members. We have a common belief system, a final authority whose word
>> was
>> > accepted as law, scriptural commands vetoes and examples, detailed
>> written
>> > instructions for processing casers, regular updates to published
>> material,
>> > with all hairs split exactly and finely and we investigated and
>> implemented
>> > those standards for sexual issues in our congregation. Accusations of
>> child
>> > abuse have to be reported to head office, and were not to be kept
>> local. We
>> > would act under instruction in those cases. This whole area is part of
>> the
>> > regular teaching programme at our meetings. *We need all of this support
>> > to police the standards properly. *
>> >
>> > You guys are predominantly highly principled but low in religious
>> values,*
>> > and you have none of the above support.* Frankly, for a headless
>> movement
>> > like Permaculture without even a central respected authority to call the
>> > shots, imho you haven't a hope of implementing a meaningful control. I
>> > wish you luck and advise you to give up now. Think of this: How do you
>> > handle a complaint where a girl alleges compulsion or unfair abuse of
>> > position in a sexual encounter where alcohol was involved, the male
>> > Permaculture teacher denies it and claims everything was consensual; you
>> > investigate, and their accounts differ; it's a swearing match. She
>> > transpires to be a poor but sincere witness and gets upset; He is more
>> > confident and adamantly denies it, but is found innaccurate or
>> untruthful
>> > in some circumstantial details. There is a conflict of evidence, and
>> there
>> > are no witnesses.
>> > If you can't figure out a way of handling the above instance, and how to
>> > implement that worldwide when the powers that be might be in a different
>> > land, I advise again: the 'Stubbs Gazette' approach is all you can
>> > reasonably do. You absolutely have no idea how dispiriting, depressing,
>> and
>> > personally draining handling these cases can be. Someone who handles one
>> > certainly won't want to handle another. One useful thing would be to
>> > encourage men on a PDC to report predatorial sexual activity by PDC
>> > Teachers/lecturers. If a guy is preening himself in front of the women,
>> > other men can spot it a mile off. Banning one-on-one encounters is
>> > another option, but I have no idea how you would implement any of those.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Declan Moriarty
>> > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 12:09 AM
>> > *From:* "Lawrence London" <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
>> > On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Toby Hemenway <
>> toby@patternliteracy.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > I would very much like to see a safe, non-accusatory, open discussion
>> of
>> > > this issue, in which specific cases were brought up, especially by
>> those
>> > > involved in them, and where there is an unprejudiced evaluation of
>> what
>> > > kind of harm has been done in the permaculture community by real
>> cases of
>> > > behavior.
>> >
>> >
>> > The proposal I made for a turn key system utilizing a forum and website
>> > would give you exactly what you need and provide complete privacy. If
>> you
>> > want me to repost thai I will. If you want me to create these resources
>> for
>> > you I will, for free but prefer some remuneration if at all posible, but
>> > definitely for free just get it done and maintained.
>> >
>> > Thanks for your contributions to this list, Toby, they are very much
>> > appreciated.
>> >
>> > Let me know if I can help further.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > permaculture mailing list
>> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> João Gonçalves
>>
>> "Ao comprar ou consumir de forma ética também está a intervir na paisagem
>> e
>> a decidir quem tem trabalho."
>>
>> "Eating is an agricultural act" - "Comer é um acto agrícola" - Wendell
>> Berry
>>
>> "Permacultura (Cultura Permanente) é um sistema ético de design
>> ecológico."
>>
>> (+351) 96 96 80 009
>> Chão Sobral - Oliveira do Hospital - Serra do Açor - Portugal
>> http://ecotrabalho.com/
>> http://permacultureglobal.com/users/902-joao-goncalves
>> http://chaosobral.org/index_pt.htm
>> http://www.youtube.com/joaovox
>> http://agricultura-familiar-tradicional.blogspot.pt
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/joaovox
>> http://picasaweb.google.pt/uniprochaosobral
>>
>> Para descobrir:
>> Documentário "Alface" na Aldeia das Amoreiras
>> http://vimeo.com/58999047
>> Permacultura na Serra do Açor - Portugal
>> http://permaculturinginportugal.net/blog/
>> "Comida que nunca acaba" / Permacultura no Malawi
>> http://www.neverendingfood.org/
>> Centro de Ecologia Integral
>> http://www.integralecology.org
>> Nyumbani - Kenya
>> http://www.nyumbani.org/about-us
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>
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