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  • From: <scott@permaculture.org>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
  • Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:03:27 -0600

Sorry Steve I will miss seeing you but I will not be attending the NAPC. I
don't know if I will be attending any national or international pc events
until they address the sabot in the works. It feels more and more like a
college fraternity than a serious organization that is intent on addressing
the issues of our time and of our group. If I am going to be a voice in the
wilderness, I might as well enjoy the wilderness.

Scott

> -------Original Message-------
> From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
> Sent: Jul 09 '16 00:13
>
> A divergent subject...going sideways. I'm contemplating a quick visit to
> attend the NAPC II...who sis going ?
> Jason ?
> Scott ?
> Toby ?
> Lawrence ?
> Albert ?
>
> Hopefully I can juggle it amongst too many other comittments..Steve Hart
>
> On 9 July 2016 at 17:58, scrooge McDuck <declan@planetmail.net> wrote:
>
> > Jason, that must be the US you're talking about. Big big business there
> > has bought successive politicians by campaign funding, and influenced
> laws
> > greatly in their favour. The businesses make billions and pay little/no
> > taxes. The economy is actually a PLUTONOMY staffed in the main by the
> > PRECARIAT - the precarious proletariat.
> >
> > Yes of course Mollison was right. My university degree in Electronic
> > Engineering was a joke. In the days when we are ripping out copper
> > infrastructure in telecommunications and putting in glass fibre, we were
> > still bring taught about balancing copper lines. We learned every
> obsolete
> > protocol, ,(frame relay, x25, ,rs232, etc) and nothing about new ones.
> >
> > I would like to see Bill Mollison and maybe Toby Hemenway write up a
> > Universal Permaculture Curriculum with specified subjects, hours of
> course
> > time per subject, & practical elements. People should be trained to look
> > for PDC Courses that taught the full UPC - a fact they would advertise
> and
> > they would issue attendance certs.
> > Design Certification should come from one Central Authority or two at
> > least 5 years into a successful design. The design site should be
> > registered in year one & photographed & described. Profits and expenses
> > should be recorded for the 5 years, and a final report should detail the
> > current status and planting scheme, zones, climate over the years etc.
> This
> > cert could be graded like Universities; A 1st, 2:1, 2:2, pass & fail.
> > Failures could reapply inside a few years if their work bore fruit. The
> > central Authority issuing design certification need never visit, but
> could
> > put up report guidelines & accept reports online.
> > Local PDC holders could be asked to verify suspicious cases.
> > --
> > Declan Moriarty
> > Sent from my Android tablet with mail.com Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> > On 08/07/2016, 20:45 Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm glad that post made sense Darrell, Lawrence. Sometimes it's hard to
> >> know. Lawrence, feel free to use whatever you like from that post and
> >> attribute it to me. I'd be honored. I also thank you for maintaining
> this
> >> list. When it's really engaging it can be so good. The recent biochar
> >> thread was eye opening for me.
> >>
> >> Declan, I basically agree with Mollison about the uneasy marriage
> between
> >> permaculture and higher education. Being one week out of my professorial
> >> career as a permaculture teacher of nearly 6 years at a private liberal
> >> arts school as well as having taught at land grant colleges and state
> >> universities, I found the headaches to be more difficult than the high
> >> points, and there were plenty of very high points. I'd say it depends on
> >> the institution and the attitude of the professor though. I'm well aware
> >> that my anti-establishment attitude got in the way sometimes, as I
> suspect
> >> was the case with Bill too. Ultimately, what bothered me most was the
> fact
> >> that higher ed institutions are a business. I just want to teach and
> bring
> >> the utmost of passion to it. I also couldn't shake the fact that student
> >> debt is the largest form of debt in existence. It's exclusive, and it's
> a
> >> sham, built on the faulty foundation of perpetual growth industrial
> >> economics whose promises are crumbling before our very eyes, and have
> been
> >> for a very long time. It's hard to teach about economics through a
> >> permaculture lens when the majority of students in front of me are
> >> uneasily
> >> wading into massive debt just to be there. Now could we design education
> >> institutions in different ways that aren't based on exclusion, going
> into
> >> debt, federal funding, the politics of business, etc? You bet. There are
> >> good examples to pattern and improve off of too.
> >>
> >> Jason Gerhardt
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Darrell E. Frey <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Well said Jason!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Darrell E. Frey
> >> > Three Sisters Farm
> >> > defrey@bioshelter.com
> >> > www.bioshelter.com
> >> >
> >> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> >> > Publishing, 2011
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 13:47:19 -0600, Jason Gerhardt <
> >> jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > In large part, I think the PDC certification problem revolves around
> >> > framing. We haven't done a great job at framing what the PDC is, in
> both
> >> > advertisements and in the PDC itself. Looking at most course
> >> advertisements
> >> > the PDC seems to be a long list of skills to learn ranging from
> natural
> >> > building to food forests. Are we really training people to be
> >> > competent/professional natural builders and food foresters, among all
> >> the
> >> > other things on the list? Not in my experience. So what ARE we doing?
> >> Toby
> >> > said it really well that "the PDC's main function is to get people
> >> thinking
> >> > in permaculture terms". I think we need to examine what that really
> >> means.
> >> > A fundamental question for me is why do many people who take a PDC
> >> decide
> >> > to teach the PDC or become landscape designers? Sure it's a great way
> to
> >> > force oneself to practice and experience all that permaculture has to
> >> > offer, but in the end it's not thinking with a permaculture lens as
> far
> >> as
> >> > I'm concerned; it's just monkey see, monkey do.
> >> >
> >> > Permaculture and the PDC are all about story to me. We train people to
> >> be
> >> > designers starting with tracking the patterns of the stories all
> around
> >> > them, and within them. As a permaculture teacher I feel I am narrating
> >> the
> >> > story of what it means to be a living organism in an ecosystem. I have
> >> to
> >> > tell the stories of climate function and hydrology and soil science
> and
> >> > social history to effectively narrate what it means to be alive on
> this
> >> > planet. The curriculum then builds into how to harness or deflect
> these
> >> > forces to create a civilization that is integrated rather than
> >> > disintegrating. Where I think we are lacking is in guiding people in a
> >> way
> >> > that they can integrate THEMSELVES into that greater story. Do we give
> >> them
> >> > a new story to live out (you be a farmer, you be a natural builder)?
> >> That's
> >> > not how I would approach designing for a client, so it's certainly not
> >> how
> >> > I'm gonna teach people to be pattern readers and how to design. Giving
> >> > people a new story to live is just the same old narrative that anybody
> >> has
> >> > ever been given (you be a banker, you be a drug dealer). Where the PDC
> >> can
> >> > shine more is in helping people discover their own story. I ask my
> >> students
> >> > to ask themselves where they come from, what they care about and why,
> >> what
> >> > experiences they've had and how that affects who they are, etc. I
> >> require
> >> > students to look at their own life, to map their own sectors and
> zones,
> >> > analyze their own element, so they can place themselves in right
> >> > relationship to everything else. It seems to me if we approached the
> PDC
> >> > through that lens we'd have a lot more people discovering their own
> >> > passions and incorporating permaculture into the world that way. THAT
> is
> >> > thinking through a permaculture lens. It's a long process, and there
> is
> >> no
> >> > promise of a pot of gold at the end, but it actually helps people,
> >> rather
> >> > than just giving people some new thing to do for a while as a
> "certified
> >> > designer or teacher".
> >> >
> >> > We are again at a point in human society where people are
> fundamentally
> >> > questioning on a large scale the stories told from the powers that be.
> >> My
> >> > question is, when do we get guided through a process that helps us
> >> discover
> >> > the powers that be dormant inside us? When do we discover our own
> >> stories?
> >> > I actually think permaculture and the PDC can be really good at that
> >> (and
> >> > quite subversive to the status quo too). Mollison said, permaculture
> is
> >> > basically about putting things in the right place. So ask your
> students
> >> to
> >> > design their own lives so they can understand where the right place is
> >> for
> >> > them. In my experience teaching this way I get few who want to teach
> the
> >> > PDC or design professionally after the course. They realize more how
> >> much
> >> > they don't know, rather than how much they do know. It leads them to
> be
> >> > curious, to seek further, to think critically, and to really try to
> >> arrange
> >> > things thoughtfully, starting with themselves. It leads them inward
> >> rather
> >> > than sending them to their resume to try and look good outward.
> >> >
> >> > Jason Gerhardt
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Toby Hemenway <
> >> toby@patternliteracy.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Oct 22, 2010, at 4:24 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Every PDC I know of gives a certificate at the end of the course
> >> saying
> >> > > "Permaculture Design Course" and none of them say "trainee." I was
> >> told
> >> > by
> >> > > my teacher that I should apprentice for minimum two years to become
> a
> >> > > teacher, but not a designer.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > There's no restriction on doing design work. Get out and design, no
> >> > matter
> >> > > whether you've taken a PDC or whatever. And design, and design some
> >> more.
> >> > > The issue is in calling oneself "certified," as the paper you get is
> >> > simply
> >> > > a certificate of completion of the PDC, not of certification as a
> >> > designer
> >> > > (I'd hate to think there are certificates out there saying
> "certified
> >> Pc
> >> > > designer", but then, most people just make up their own. I use the
> one
> >> > > Mollison created, via the Permaculture Institute USA). It seems
> >> bizarre
> >> > for
> >> > > someone who has done one team design project in a class to say they
> >> are a
> >> > > certified designer.
> >> > >
> >> > > And I totally agree that BIll set up many policies in very vague
> ways,
> >> > and
> >> > > as Paul and other say, plenty of people claim the certificate makes
> >> them
> >> > a
> >> > > certified designer. There are currently a number of efforts, in Oz,
> >> NZ,
> >> > UK,
> >> > > and US, among others, to clarify this and correct it. The comments
> >> here
> >> > so
> >> > > far all suggest a high level of integrity, which is the saving grace
> >> for
> >> > > all this.
> >> > >
> >> > > Paul's Java story points out a related issue. Java certification,
> for
> >> > one,
> >> > > claims from the get-go to be a certification program, and the PDC
> was
> >> > never
> >> > > intended to be that. I think some people engaged in what I call
> >> "resume
> >> > > bloat" and started saying they were certified after a PDC because it
> >> > sounds
> >> > > very grand, and it caught on.
> >> > >
> >> > > And the Java program ends with an exam. There is no exam in the PDC.
> >> The
> >> > > design project is not very rigorously "graded." I know there are
> rare
> >> > times
> >> > > when a PDC teacher says a design presentation is too lame to
> warrant a
> >> > > PDC, but that almost never happens. You show up for the project, you
> >> get
> >> > > your certificate. That's not really grading. PDC teachers all
> >> recognize
> >> > > that the design project is a student project and is not graded with
> >> > > anything at all approaching the rigor of a project that might
> actually
> >> > get
> >> > > built as designed. I don't think this is so much a weakness of a PDC
> >> as
> >> > it
> >> > > is proof that the PDC is a merely an intro to permaculture, and
> >> > underscores
> >> > > that nobody gains enough experience in a PDC to actually do
> competent
> >> > > design work. The PDC's main function is to get people thinking in
> >> > > permaculture terms.
> >> > >
> >> > > Toby
> >> > > http://patternliteracy.com
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > permaculture mailing list
> >> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> >> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > www.realearthdesign.com
> >> >
> >> > 720-496-9744
> >> > permaculture mailing list
> >> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >> www.realearthdesign.com
> >>
> >> 720-496-9744
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>
> >
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Kia ora Ehoa
>
> [image: Picture]
> *Steve Hart*
> *Ecology Architect*
> *Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
> Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape Architecture
> and Systems Ecology.​*
> Skype: tipenemanawa
> Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
>
> Permaculture Global Design:
> www.permacultureglobaldesign.org
>
> The Permaculture International College
> www.permaculturecollege.eu
> https://permaculturecollege.academia.edu/SteveHart
>
> GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions.
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