permaculture

[<scott@permaculture.org>]

Sorry Steve I will miss seeing you but I will not be attending the NAPC.  I 
don't know if I will be attending any national or international pc events 
until they address the sabot in the works.  It feels more and more like a 
college fraternity than a serious organization that is intent on addressing 
the issues of our time and of our group.  If I am going to be a voice in the 
wilderness, I might as well enjoy the wilderness.

Scott

>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
>  To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
>  Sent: Jul 09 '16 00:13
>  
>  A divergent subject...going sideways. I'm contemplating a quick visit to
>  attend the NAPC II...who sis going ?
>  Jason ?
>  Scott ?
>  Toby ?
>  Lawrence ?
>  Albert ?
>  
>  Hopefully I can juggle it amongst too many other comittments..Steve Hart
>  
>  On 9 July 2016 at 17:58, scrooge McDuck <declan@planetmail.net> wrote:
>  
>  > Jason, that must be the US you're talking about. Big big business there
>  > has bought successive politicians by campaign funding, and influenced 
> laws
>  > greatly in their favour. The businesses make billions and pay little/no
>  > taxes. The economy is actually a PLUTONOMY staffed in the main by the
>  > PRECARIAT - the precarious proletariat.
>  >
>  > Yes of course Mollison was right. My university degree in Electronic
>  > Engineering was a joke. In the days when we are ripping out copper
>  > infrastructure in telecommunications and putting in glass fibre, we were
>  > still bring taught about balancing copper lines. We learned every 
> obsolete
>  > protocol, ,(frame relay, x25, ,rs232, etc) and nothing about new ones.
>  >
>  > I would like to see Bill Mollison and maybe Toby Hemenway write up a
>  > Universal Permaculture Curriculum with specified subjects, hours of 
> course
>  > time per subject, & practical elements. People should be trained to look
>  > for PDC Courses that taught the full UPC - a fact they would advertise 
> and
>  > they would issue attendance certs.
>  > Design Certification should come from one Central Authority or two at
>  > least 5 years into a successful design. The design site should be
>  > registered in year one & photographed & described. Profits and expenses
>  > should be recorded for the 5 years, and a final report should detail the
>  > current status and planting scheme, zones, climate over the years etc. 
> This
>  > cert could be graded like Universities; A 1st, 2:1, 2:2, pass & fail.
>  > Failures could reapply inside a few years if their work bore fruit. The
>  > central Authority issuing design certification need never visit, but 
> could
>  > put up report guidelines & accept reports online.
>  > Local PDC holders could be asked to verify suspicious cases.
>  > --
>  > Declan Moriarty
>  > Sent from my Android tablet with mail.com Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>  > On 08/07/2016, 20:45 Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>  >>
>  >> I'm glad that post made sense Darrell, Lawrence. Sometimes it's hard to
>  >> know. Lawrence, feel free to use whatever you like from that post and
>  >> attribute it to me. I'd be honored. I also thank you for maintaining 
> this
>  >> list. When it's really engaging it can be so good. The recent biochar
>  >> thread was eye opening for me.
>  >>
>  >> Declan, I basically agree with Mollison about the uneasy marriage 
> between
>  >> permaculture and higher education. Being one week out of my professorial
>  >> career as a permaculture teacher of nearly 6 years at a private liberal
>  >> arts school as well as having taught at land grant colleges and state
>  >> universities, I found the headaches to be more difficult than the high
>  >> points, and there were plenty of very high points. I'd say it depends on
>  >> the institution and the attitude of the professor though. I'm well aware
>  >> that my anti-establishment attitude got in the way sometimes, as I 
> suspect
>  >> was the case with Bill too. Ultimately, what bothered me most was the 
> fact
>  >> that higher ed institutions are a business. I just want to teach and 
> bring
>  >> the utmost of passion to it. I also couldn't shake the fact that student
>  >> debt is the largest form of debt in existence. It's exclusive, and it's 
> a
>  >> sham, built on the faulty foundation of perpetual growth industrial
>  >> economics whose promises are crumbling before our very eyes, and have 
> been
>  >> for a very long time. It's hard to teach about economics through a
>  >> permaculture lens when the majority of students in front of me are
>  >> uneasily
>  >> wading into massive debt just to be there. Now could we design education
>  >> institutions in different ways that aren't based on exclusion, going 
> into
>  >> debt, federal funding, the politics of business, etc? You bet. There are
>  >> good examples to pattern and improve off of too.
>  >>
>  >> Jason Gerhardt
>  >>
>  >> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Darrell E. Frey <defrey@bioshelter.com>
>  >> wrote:
>  >>
>  >> > Well said Jason!
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> > Darrell E. Frey
>  >> > Three Sisters Farm
>  >> > defrey@bioshelter.com
>  >> > www.bioshelter.com
>  >> >
>  >> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
>  >> > Publishing, 2011
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> > On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 13:47:19 -0600, Jason Gerhardt <
>  >> jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
>  >> > wrote:
>  >> >
>  >> > In large part, I think the PDC certification problem revolves around
>  >> > framing. We haven't done a great job at framing what the PDC is, in 
> both
>  >> > advertisements and in the PDC itself. Looking at most course
>  >> advertisements
>  >> > the PDC seems to be a long list of skills to learn ranging from 
> natural
>  >> > building to food forests. Are we really training people to be
>  >> > competent/professional natural builders and food foresters, among all
>  >> the
>  >> > other things on the list? Not in my experience. So what ARE we doing?
>  >> Toby
>  >> > said it really well that "the PDC's main function is to get people
>  >> thinking
>  >> > in permaculture terms". I think we need to examine what that really
>  >> means.
>  >> > A fundamental question for me is why do many people who take a PDC
>  >> decide
>  >> > to teach the PDC or become landscape designers? Sure it's a great way 
> to
>  >> > force oneself to practice and experience all that permaculture has to
>  >> > offer, but in the end it's not thinking with a permaculture lens as 
> far
>  >> as
>  >> > I'm concerned; it's just monkey see, monkey do.
>  >> >
>  >> > Permaculture and the PDC are all about story to me. We train people to
>  >> be
>  >> > designers starting with tracking the patterns of the stories all 
> around
>  >> > them, and within them. As a permaculture teacher I feel I am narrating
>  >> the
>  >> > story of what it means to be a living organism in an ecosystem. I have
>  >> to
>  >> > tell the stories of climate function and hydrology and soil science 
> and
>  >> > social history to effectively narrate what it means to be alive on 
> this
>  >> > planet. The curriculum then builds into how to harness or deflect 
> these
>  >> > forces to create a civilization that is integrated rather than
>  >> > disintegrating. Where I think we are lacking is in guiding people in a
>  >> way
>  >> > that they can integrate THEMSELVES into that greater story. Do we give
>  >> them
>  >> > a new story to live out (you be a farmer, you be a natural builder)?
>  >> That's
>  >> > not how I would approach designing for a client, so it's certainly not
>  >> how
>  >> > I'm gonna teach people to be pattern readers and how to design. Giving
>  >> > people a new story to live is just the same old narrative that anybody
>  >> has
>  >> > ever been given (you be a banker, you be a drug dealer). Where the PDC
>  >> can
>  >> > shine more is in helping people discover their own story. I ask my
>  >> students
>  >> > to ask themselves where they come from, what they care about and why,
>  >> what
>  >> > experiences they've had and how that affects who they are, etc. I
>  >> require
>  >> > students to look at their own life, to map their own sectors and 
> zones,
>  >> > analyze their own element, so they can place themselves in right
>  >> > relationship to everything else. It seems to me if we approached the 
> PDC
>  >> > through that lens we'd have a lot more people discovering their own
>  >> > passions and incorporating permaculture into the world that way. THAT 
> is
>  >> > thinking through a permaculture lens. It's a long process, and there 
> is
>  >> no
>  >> > promise of a pot of gold at the end, but it actually helps people,
>  >> rather
>  >> > than just giving people some new thing to do for a while as a 
> "certified
>  >> > designer or teacher".
>  >> >
>  >> > We are again at a point in human society where people are 
> fundamentally
>  >> > questioning on a large scale the stories told from the powers that be.
>  >> My
>  >> > question is, when do we get guided through a process that helps us
>  >> discover
>  >> > the powers that be dormant inside us? When do we discover our own
>  >> stories?
>  >> > I actually think permaculture and the PDC can be really good at that
>  >> (and
>  >> > quite subversive to the status quo too). Mollison said, permaculture 
> is
>  >> > basically about putting things in the right place. So ask your 
> students
>  >> to
>  >> > design their own lives so they can understand where the right place is
>  >> for
>  >> > them. In my experience teaching this way I get few who want to teach 
> the
>  >> > PDC or design professionally after the course. They realize more how
>  >> much
>  >> > they don't know, rather than how much they do know. It leads them to 
> be
>  >> > curious, to seek further, to think critically, and to really try to
>  >> arrange
>  >> > things thoughtfully, starting with themselves. It leads them inward
>  >> rather
>  >> > than sending them to their resume to try and look good outward.
>  >> >
>  >> > Jason Gerhardt
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> > On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Toby Hemenway <
>  >> toby@patternliteracy.com>
>  >> > wrote:
>  >> >
>  >> > > On Oct 22, 2010, at 4:24 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:
>  >> > >
>  >> > > Every PDC I know of gives a certificate at the end of the course
>  >> saying
>  >> > > "Permaculture Design Course" and none of them say "trainee." I was
>  >> told
>  >> > by
>  >> > > my teacher that I should apprentice for minimum two years to become 
> a
>  >> > > teacher, but not a designer.
>  >> > >
>  >> > >
>  >> > > There's no restriction on doing design work. Get out and design, no
>  >> > matter
>  >> > > whether you've taken a PDC or whatever. And design, and design some
>  >> more.
>  >> > > The issue is in calling oneself "certified," as the paper you get is
>  >> > simply
>  >> > > a certificate of completion of the PDC, not of certification as a
>  >> > designer
>  >> > > (I'd hate to think there are certificates out there saying 
> "certified
>  >> Pc
>  >> > > designer", but then, most people just make up their own. I use the 
> one
>  >> > > Mollison created, via the Permaculture Institute USA). It seems
>  >> bizarre
>  >> > for
>  >> > > someone who has done one team design project in a class to say they
>  >> are a
>  >> > > certified designer.
>  >> > >
>  >> > > And I totally agree that BIll set up many policies in very vague 
> ways,
>  >> > and
>  >> > > as Paul and other say, plenty of people claim the certificate makes
>  >> them
>  >> > a
>  >> > > certified designer. There are currently a number of efforts, in Oz,
>  >> NZ,
>  >> > UK,
>  >> > > and US, among others, to clarify this and correct it. The comments
>  >> here
>  >> > so
>  >> > > far all suggest a high level of integrity, which is the saving grace
>  >> for
>  >> > > all this.
>  >> > >
>  >> > > Paul's Java story points out a related issue. Java certification, 
> for
>  >> > one,
>  >> > > claims from the get-go to be a certification program, and the PDC 
> was
>  >> > never
>  >> > > intended to be that. I think some people engaged in what I call
>  >> "resume
>  >> > > bloat" and started saying they were certified after a PDC because it
>  >> > sounds
>  >> > > very grand, and it caught on.
>  >> > >
>  >> > > And the Java program ends with an exam. There is no exam in the PDC.
>  >> The
>  >> > > design project is not very rigorously "graded." I know there are 
> rare
>  >> > times
>  >> > > when a PDC teacher says a design presentation is too lame to 
> warrant a
>  >> > > PDC, but that almost never happens. You show up for the project, you
>  >> get
>  >> > > your certificate. That's not really grading. PDC teachers all
>  >> recognize
>  >> > > that the design project is a student project and is not graded with
>  >> > > anything at all approaching the rigor of a project that might 
> actually
>  >> > get
>  >> > > built as designed. I don't think this is so much a weakness of a PDC
>  >> as
>  >> > it
>  >> > > is proof that the PDC is a merely an intro to permaculture, and
>  >> > underscores
>  >> > > that nobody gains enough experience in a PDC to actually do 
> competent
>  >> > > design work. The PDC's main function is to get people thinking in
>  >> > > permaculture terms.
>  >> > >
>  >> > > Toby
>  >> > > http://patternliteracy.com
>  >> > >
>  >> > >
>  >> > >
>  >> > >
>  >> > > permaculture mailing list
>  >> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  >> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>  >> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>  >> > >
>  >> > >
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> > --
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> > www.realearthdesign.com
>  >> >
>  >> > 720-496-9744
>  >> > permaculture mailing list
>  >> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> --
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> www.realearthdesign.com
>  >>
>  >> 720-496-9744
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>  >
>  
>  
>  --
>  Kia ora Ehoa
>  
>  [image: Picture]
>  *Steve Hart*
>  *Ecology Architect*
>  *Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
>  Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape Architecture
>  and Systems Ecology.​*
>  Skype: tipenemanawa
>  Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
>  
>  Permaculture Global Design:
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>  
>  The Permaculture International College
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