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  • From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
  • Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 16:03:05 -0700

Jason,

thanks for the sayin'.  How would you design this conversation into the
convergence?  I am sure it will be addressed to some extent in various talks
and keynotes. Can you focalize a think tank along these lines? 


Looking forward to working with you at NAPC.

 
Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski



On Thursday, August 7, 2014 2:15 AM, Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
wrote:



This conversation has been very interesting to follow. I’m on vacation, but
can’t resist a comment or two. For the record, I’m attending NAPC and
excited. I’m trying not to have hopes, but just be open so I can observe,
participate, and contribute.



I totally hear Toby’s points and resonate with the need to make a more
professional presentation. I also hear Koreen in saying there are many
types of people interested in permaculture and therefore many needs/desires
for a conference/convergence. In thinking through all of this I see a big
point that is lacking, which is probably the exact reason why we need to
converge.



First, we can’t just look at *needs and yields*. Mollison drew up the
Analysis of Elements design methodology in a specific way and I think it
has been too commonly dumbed-down to needs and yields analysis. What are
missing are *characteristics*. I see it being useful to define the
characteristics, in the application of a permaculture conference, as *what
permaculture is*. The needs and yields of a permaculture conference should
primarily be developed from the characteristics of what permaculture is,
otherwise we are going to try being everything to everyone, especially if a
survey is used to identify the needs and desired yields of hundreds of
people. The defining feature of all of this is that people think
permaculture is too many different things. We have done a poor job at
defining permaculture and actually practicing it as it is defined (the
bigger problem). That is also the stumbling block to attaining greater
professionalism and thus securing larger projects with larger impact and
thus securing more secure livelihoods for practitioners. We are most
definitely still at the point of figuring out what the hell permaculture
is. And that is probably a good reason to converge.



Instead of this we are holding onto the idea of how to spread the
permaculture gospel. As if spreading the permaculture word is the intention
rather than doing great work with permaculture. These two things get
greatly confused in the broad permaculture field (intentionally avoiding
the word movement as that has only confused things further as I see it).
And they are both hampered by the lack of having a solid definition that
doesn’t have all kinds of trappings and additionals attached to it.



Together, all of these things are what I see as preventatives to
permaculture actually taking off beyond the rural homestead strategies of
Mollisonian food forest and hugelkultur, which if we’re honest is so
fucking played. I wish we had more to share in a professional context of
permaculture application at these conferences (not to say we don’t have
anything, but there is less than we all know is possible), but why we don’t
is because we haven’t broadly discovered the identity of the permaculturist
yet. We’re still off journeying through the hinterlands hoping to stumble
upon the kernel of truth, when the truth has been right under our nose the
entire time. That truth is that permaculture has been simply and
well-defined already. And too few have accepted it and gotten down to
applying it.



I think we forget that “the solutions are embarrassingly simple.” It would
indeed be embarrassing to hold a conference on what permaculture is, nearly
40 years post coining, but I think that’s where we are, broadly speaking,
unfortunately.



Jason Gerhardt



p.s. this is in no way whatsoever critiquing any one individual nor aimed
at the organizers of NAPC, which consists of good friends and colleagues.
In modern parlance…I’m just sayin’.
_______________________________________________
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How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
-- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for
synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human
habitat
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 18:16:17 -0700
From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Koreen Brennan <koreen@growpermaculture.com>
To: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>,
permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>,
Robyn Francis <robyn@permaculture.com.au>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
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Robyn, Thank you much for your clarification and for sharing this
information. There were very likely some valuable successful actions at those
early meetings that may still be relevant today. The sequence of convergence
and then conference sounds like it might have advantages for the reasons you
mention. I think it is important that the history of our movement is more
broadly known in our community. 
 
Koreen Brennan
www.growpermaculture.com
www.northamericanpermaculture.org



On Thursday, August 7, 2014 5:03 PM, Michael Pilarski via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:



Jason,

thanks for the sayin'.  How would you design this conversation into the
convergence?  I am sure it will be addressed to some extent in various talks
and keynotes. Can you focalize a think tank along these lines? 


Looking forward to working with you at NAPC.

 
Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski



On Thursday, August 7, 2014 2:15 AM, Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
wrote:



This conversation has been very interesting to follow. I’m on vacation, but
can’t resist a comment or two. For the record, I’m attending NAPC and
excited. I’m trying not to have hopes, but just be open so I can observe,
participate, and contribute.



I totally hear Toby’s points and resonate with the need to make a more
professional presentation. I also hear Koreen in saying there are many
types of people interested in permaculture and therefore many needs/desires
for a conference/convergence. In thinking through all of this I see a big
point that is lacking, which is probably the exact reason why we need to
converge.



First, we can’t just look at *needs and yields*. Mollison drew up the
Analysis of Elements design methodology in a specific way and I think it
has been too commonly dumbed-down to needs and yields analysis. What are
missing are *characteristics*. I see it being useful to define the
characteristics, in the application of a permaculture conference, as *what
permaculture is*. The needs and yields of a permaculture conference should
primarily be developed from the characteristics of what permaculture is,
otherwise we are going to try being everything to everyone, especially if a
survey is used to identify the needs and desired yields of hundreds of
people. The defining feature of all of this is that people think
permaculture is too many different things. We have done a poor job at
defining permaculture and actually practicing it as it is defined (the
bigger problem). That is also the stumbling block to attaining greater
professionalism and thus securing larger projects with larger impact and
thus securing more secure livelihoods for practitioners. We are most
definitely still at the point of figuring out what the hell permaculture
is. And that is probably a good reason to converge.



Instead of this we are holding onto the idea of how to spread the
permaculture gospel. As if spreading the permaculture word is the intention
rather than doing great work with permaculture. These two things get
greatly confused in the broad permaculture field (intentionally avoiding
the word movement as that has only confused things further as I see it).
And they are both hampered by the lack of having a solid definition that
doesn’t have all kinds of trappings and additionals attached to it.



Together, all of these things are what I see as preventatives to
permaculture actually taking off beyond the rural homestead strategies of
Mollisonian food forest and hugelkultur, which if we’re honest is so
fucking played. I wish we had more to share in a professional context of
permaculture application at these conferences (not to say we don’t have
anything, but there is less than we all know is possible), but why we don’t
is because we haven’t broadly discovered the identity of the permaculturist
yet. We’re still off journeying through the hinterlands hoping to stumble
upon the kernel of truth, when the truth has been right under our nose the
entire time. That truth is that permaculture has been simply and
well-defined already. And too few have accepted it and gotten down to
applying it.



I think we forget that “the solutions are embarrassingly simple.” It would
indeed be embarrassing to hold a conference on what permaculture is, nearly
40 years post coining, but I think that’s where we are, broadly speaking,
unfortunately.



Jason Gerhardt



p.s. this is in no way whatsoever critiquing any one individual nor aimed
at the organizers of NAPC, which consists of good friends and colleagues.
In modern parlance…I’m just sayin’.
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
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Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
-- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for
synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human
habitat

_______________________________________________
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Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
-- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for
synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human
habitat
>From defrey@bioshelter.com Thu Aug 7 21:58:02 2014
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
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Koreen

Oh no, Watch out... you just called permaculture a movement.... another
potential can of worms...

This is comment is sort of tongue in cheek, but not entirely as these
pages have debated that topic to some extent.
Personally I do not care if it is a movement, or a convergence or what
ever. But those that do find much relavance in distinction of terms

Darrell

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Thu, 7 Aug 2014 18:16:17 -0700, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
Robyn, Thank you much for your clarification and for sharing this
information. There were very likely some valuable successful actions at
those early meetings that may still be relevant today. The sequence of
convergence and then conference sounds like it might have advantages
for the reasons you mention. I think it is important that the history
of our movement is more broadly known in our community. 
>  
> Koreen Brennan
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.northamericanpermaculture.org
>
>
>
> On Thursday, August 7, 2014 5:03 PM, Michael Pilarski via
> permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
> Jason,
>
> thanks for the sayin'.  How would you design this conversation into
> the convergence?  I am sure it will be addressed to some extent in
> various talks and keynotes. Can you focalize a think tank along these
> lines?  Looking forward to working with you at NAPC.  
> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
>
>
> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
>
>
>
> On Thursday, August 7, 2014 2:15 AM, Jason Gerhardt
> <jasongerhardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> This conversation has been very interesting to follow. I’m on vacation, but
> can’t resist a comment or two. For the record, I’m attending NAPC and
> excited. I’m trying not to have hopes, but just be open so I can observe,
> participate, and contribute.
>
>
>
> I totally hear Toby’s points and resonate with the need to make a more
> professional presentation. I also hear Koreen in saying there are many
> types of people interested in permaculture and therefore many needs/desires
> for a conference/convergence. In thinking through all of this I see a big
> point that is lacking, which is probably the exact reason why we need to
> converge.
>
>
>
> First, we can’t just look at *needs and yields*. Mollison drew up the
> Analysis of Elements design methodology in a specific way and I think it
> has been too commonly dumbed-down to needs and yields analysis. What are
> missing are *characteristics*. I see it being useful to define the
> characteristics, in the application of a permaculture conference, as *what
> permaculture is*. The needs and yields of a permaculture conference should
> primarily be developed from the characteristics of what permaculture is,
> otherwise we are going to try being everything to everyone, especially if a
> survey is used to identify the needs and desired yields of hundreds of
> people. The defining feature of all of this is that people think
> permaculture is too many different things. We have done a poor job at
> defining permaculture and actually practicing it as it is defined (the
> bigger problem). That is also the stumbling block to attaining greater
> professionalism and thus securing larger projects with larger impact and
> thus securing more secure livelihoods for practitioners. We are most
> definitely still at the point of figuring out what the hell permaculture
> is. And that is probably a good reason to converge.
>
>
>
> Instead of this we are holding onto the idea of how to spread the
> permaculture gospel. As if spreading the permaculture word is the intention
> rather than doing great work with permaculture. These two things get
> greatly confused in the broad permaculture field (intentionally avoiding
> the word movement as that has only confused things further as I see it).
> And they are both hampered by the lack of having a solid definition that
> doesn’t have all kinds of trappings and additionals attached to it.
>
>
>
> Together, all of these things are what I see as preventatives to
> permaculture actually taking off beyond the rural homestead strategies of
> Mollisonian food forest and hugelkultur, which if we’re honest is so
> fucking played. I wish we had more to share in a professional context of
> permaculture application at these conferences (not to say we don’t have
> anything, but there is less than we all know is possible), but why we don’t
> is because we haven’t broadly discovered the identity of the permaculturist
> yet. We’re still off journeying through the hinterlands hoping to stumble
> upon the kernel of truth, when the truth has been right under our nose the
> entire time. That truth is that permaculture has been simply and
> well-defined already. And too few have accepted it and gotten down to
> applying it.
>
>
>
> I think we forget that “the solutions are embarrassingly simple.” It would
> indeed be embarrassing to hold a conference on what permaculture is, nearly
> 40 years post coining, but I think that’s where we are, broadly speaking,
> unfortunately.
>
>
>
> Jason Gerhardt
>
>
>
> p.s. this is in no way whatsoever critiquing any one individual nor aimed
> at the organizers of NAPC, which consists of good friends and colleagues.
> In modern parlance…I’m just sayin’.
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> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
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> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> _______________________________________________
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> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
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> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat





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