permaculture

[KAKerby@aol.com]

We had the opposite - day after day of bright sunshine, temperatures quite  
warm but not hot, low humidity, and they driest summer in 65 years.  A lot  
of the upland farming areas where they've never had to irrigate before, had 
to  irrigate.  We were very fortunate that our hayfields are at river 
level, so  the water table is at most only a few feet down. Our grass never 
dried 
out, but  a lot of folks' pastures and fields did.  We're expecting our 
first  serious amount of rain in over three months, this coming Friday.  A 
whole  inch!
 
Aquaponics is flexible enough that the energy "footprint" can vary,  
depending upon siting, climate, goals, limitations, etc.  One of the  
research 
articles I was trying to find earlier in this conversation, and  maddenly it 
eluded me, was a series of studies from a Canadian university,  studying the 
suitability of using aquaponics during a Canadian winter, and how  those 
energy needs could be minimized.  But one of the very first articles  I read 
about hydroponics (and this would apply to aquaponics too), was the  
combination of feeder steers in co-housing with the plants during the  
winter.  They 
shared a greenhouse which was (understandably) divided in  half, with the 
steers at one end of the greenhouse, and the plants at the  other.  The 
steers 
produced an amazing amount of both CO2 and heat, while  the plants produced 
an amazing amount of O2 and all the steer's feed.  The  only energy that 
system needed was the lighting, which the steers would have  needed anyway.  
Even then it was just a few hours in the morning, and a few  hours at night, 
to supplement the short day length.  I think this was in  Ontario somewhere, 
so the cold they had to deal with was considerable.  It was a beautiful 
example of what can be done without a whole lot of  overly-complicated 
fussing.  
 
I'm going to need to pull away from this conversation now, because I've got 
 projects here waiting on my time and I've devoted a lot of time to chasing 
down  these issues already.  But if anyone wants more information about  
this-or-that topic in aquaponics, please feel free to email me and I'll see 
if 
I  can either answer, or point you towards where you can find answers.  
Thanks  everyone for keeping it civil.
Kathryn Kerby
frogchorusfarm.com
Snohomish, WA
 
 
In a message dated 10/10/2012 12:00:06 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
dhondt@eircom.net writes:


Hi  Kathryn,
we had the most impossible summer ever here in Ireland. Only two  days our 
temperatures were above 20 C and then not more than one or two  degrees 
above. And sunshine hours could be tallied up on the fingers of  ones 
hands. 
We saw more sun in the last half of September than during the  whole rest 
of 
the year, a bit too late for many crops. And I take it that  aquaponics 
would 
need serious extra energy input here to make it work.  Without light 
especially, no photosynthesis.

I have been using your  techniques of compost tea, huge diversity of crops 
heavily mixed. Wind is  very seldom abscent here so air circulation is 
often 
more than required  :)

I'll have to seriously think about an aquaponic  system.

John

> John, I had to chuckle when I read your note  at the end about Ireland's
> dampness and resulting "fungal  abundance".  We have much the same climate
> here as you do.   We're not quite as far north, but we've got l-o-n-g, 
damp
>  autumn/winter/spring, with typically only a few short weeks of warm  dry
> summer.  We could quite possibly be the mildew capital of the  
continental 
> USA.
> Early blight, late blight, fungal  this-n-that are all very common  here 
> for
> just about  everything and anything that grows.
>
> Happily, there are a  variety of options in aqupaonic systems.  One of  my
>  favorites is to inoculate the system in advance with beneficial   
bacterial
> and fungal colonies, so that any wayward spore or germ has a  lot of
> competition, right from the start.  That can be done  either in the root 
> zone or
> foliar sprays or both.  One  very popular choice is compost tea,  which I 
> believe
>  someone else either mentioned or asked about earlier in this 
>  conversation.
> Well made compost tea is just brimming full of  beneficial  goodness, and
> it can safely be used in aquaponic  systems.
>
> Another of the strategies with aquaponic systems is  to have a really 
> strong
> diversity of plant populations, so  that no one plant species is host for
> something which will cause  problems.
>
> A third option is to have lots of moving air through  the growing  area.
> The stereotypical aquaponics system is  generally illustrated as  being 
> within
> a greenhouse, and  most of the systems I've seen or toured had fans  that
> blew a  phenomenal amount of air through that canopy.  If there were 
>  fungal
> spores moving through, they just kept on moving.  That  also helped  keep
> humidity down even with the fish tanks in near  proximity.  Some  
climates 
> can get
> away with  aquaponics systems set up outdoors, or with only  partial 
>  roofing
> (such as the UVI system).  I don't know what sorts  of  tropical nasties
> they've encountered but they must have their  own special  population of 
> pests
> down there  too.
>
> I haven't done a keyword search in Google to see what  sorts of disease
> problems the various universities have had in their  setups; I'm sure 
some 
> of
> them have written up articles about  this-or-that issue.  That might be an
> interesting day of reading  for the next rainy day we have here, which 
will 
> be
> sooner  than I'd like.  But yes, in general, there are multiple options  
for
> aquaponics, just like for other forms of gardening and/or ag,  which 
either
> prevent, minimize or mitigate damage from fungal,  bacterial or viral
> disease.  It would be hard to make blanket  recommendations about which 
> ones
> would be the best or most  appropriate, since there are so many  other 
> variables
>  involved.
> Kathryn Kerby
> frogchorusfarm.com
> Snohomish,  WA
>
>
> In a message dated 10/9/2012 4:28:43 P.M. Pacific  Daylight Time,
> dhondt@eircom.net writes:
>
>
>  I  was obviously too fast again when I called a water environment  
> basically
>
> anaerobic. That would only be the case in a  static situation. Moving 
water
> can have enough oxigen to enable salmon  to perform very powerful  leaps.
> However, if you had numbers of  micro-organisms in water as high as  in 
> good
> soil your  water would be anaerobic and it would look rather  unclear and
>  murky.
> Those huge numbers in soil are important because in  a  good ecosystem 
like
> good soil, bacteria and fungi have very much  closer  relations with 
plants
> than just turning amonia into  nitrate. It is known  that micro organisms
> exchange complex  molecules like amino acids and  vitamins (B12 has been
>  known
> for this for decades) with plants for plant  made sugar. In  some places
> like
> India people used sugar as sole  fertilizer  and saw no lack of nitrogen. 
I
> can well believe that  for I used Sitka  spruce saw dust (with virtually 
no
> nitrogen) on  top of rock and could not  find nitrogen being a limiting
> factor.  Of course we seldom have a problem  with too little rain here in
>  Ireland and that helps.
> Fungi/mycorrhizae  live partly inside  plant roots, exchange molecules and
> information and are  known to  protect plants from environmental stresses
> like
> acid rain  and  diseases caused by other fungi and bacteria.
>
> I love  my soil ecosystems  for they enabled me to get rid of potato  
blight
> and crucifer clubroot  without any chemical intervention  and even without
> rotating crops much for  20 years. What do you  do when your aquaponic
> system
> develops a disease   problem? You probably have a better chance in Tassie 
> or
> the  US but here in  Ireland blight and other fungal spores are  
everywhere.
> Still, how would  you solve disease if it  occured?
> John
>
>
> G'day John &   others,
>
> If I read John's reply correctly, he seems to imply  that  aquaponics
> systems
> are anearobic. Not so. The  bacteria that convert the  ammonia to 
nitrites,
> and other species  that convert the nitrites to  nitrates, all require
>  oxygen
> to thrive. Hence the use of air bubblers in  most  succesful system to get
> the
> dissolved oxygen (DO) levels to  the  maximum. And to prevent the fish 
from
> going belly up, of  course. DO is  VITAL to the operation of aquaponics.
> This
>  is further mitigated by system  design, e.g. the commonly used flood  and
> drain system gradually floods the  growing media with poop  water, then 
the
> water flushes away quickly which  effectively  "sucks in" O2 from the air
> above the growing bed. Then the   bacteria go to work to do the 
conversions
> so
> that the plants  can thrive.  Without O2 (by definition, anearobic
> conditions),  the bacteria die ->  poop remains poop -> fish die of  
ammonia
> poisoning. BIG  PONG.
>
> Areas that get  clogged up in the grow beds, e.g. tomatoes have  vigorous
>  root
> systems that sometimes lead to "dead" spots in the beds,  get  anaerobic.
> When
> you stick your hands in there, it  pongs. As you would  expect. These dead
> areas mean that the  overall conversion efficiency of  the grow bed (i.e.
> natural  filter) becomes less efficient. A regular  testing regime (e.g.
>  weekly) for ammonia and nitrates will show you how  efficiently  the
> conversion is happening, and will point out when there are   problems in 
> the
> system. That is one reason for instance why  sand is a  Really Bad Growing
> Medium in aquaponics, because it  simply clogs up with  poop and plant 
> roots
> too  easily.
>
> Earth worms are often put into the  growing beds,  where they work further
> on
> the sludge and enable the most  to  be made of the nutrients contained
> therein.
>
>  Lastly, there are very  few places on this planet where the perfect  
combo
> of
> soils & climate  occur. (I happen to be in  one such place, being NW
> Tasmania.) So even in  organic  soil-based ag, one would have to import
> micronutrients in the  form  of rock dusts, kelp meal etc. to get the soil
> in
>  balance. This can also be  done in an aquaponics system. Most systems  
are
> run
> in the pH range of  6.0-6.2, which means that  rock dust amendments will 
> get
> dissolved by the  slightly  acidic water, thereby making the nutrients
> avaliable to the   entire system (plants & fish). Quite commonly, sea weed
> extracts  are  also added for the same purpose.
>
>  Cheers
>
> Pierre   Marx
>
>
>
>>________________________________
>>From:  John  D'hondt <dhondt@eircom.net>
>>To: permaculture   <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>Sent: Tuesday, 9 October  2012  8:22 AM
>>Subject: Re: [permaculture] pc   aquaponics
>>
>>
>>My problem with aquaphonics is  not just  disolved chemicals aka 
nutrients.
>>Soil is an  ecosystem consisting for  at least ten % out of  
microorganisms
>>and
>>often a lot more. To a  large  extend these soil organisms are aerobic. It
> is
>>as good  as  impossible to maintain a large aerobic community in   water.
>>john
>>
>>> On 10/7/2012 9:52 PM, Scott  Pittman  wrote:
>>>> I too have serious misgivings about  aquaponics. It is  always 
presented
>>>>  as
>>>> some kind of perpetual  motion machine that  provides for all its needs
>>>>   within
>>>> the system, which I doubt. I also do not believe  that  it could 
>>>> possible
>>>> have the  nutrients necessary for providing  wholesome and  nutritious
>>>> foodstuff. We are talking about the   primary nutrient source being 
fish
>>>>  dung
>>>> in  this closed system, where does the selenium,  calcium and
> phosphorous
>>>> come
>>>>  from? The co-evolution of  plants with soil organisms and minerals  
has
>>>> created the human  nutrition story and without  soil I think the actual
>>>> nutrient  content will be  woefully inadequate.
>>>
>>> I would never try   to grow food for myself in an aquaponics system 
>>>  unless
>>> its  nutrients came from extracts of soil-based  systems (don't quite  k
> now
>>> how that would work  given the anaerobic aspects of aquaponics  
systems. 
>>>  I
>>> did find through a Google search a site with pictures   of a soil-based
>>> aquaponics system but they were growing  ornamental  aquatic plants in
>>> submerged perforated  barrels with a soil mix in  them. The root crowns 
>>>  of
>>> the plants were slightly above water   level.
>>>
>>>> I would love to see some data on  nutrient  content of hydroponic vs 
>>>>  soil
>>>> based   vegetables.
>>>
>>> There is probably no comparison  with the  nutrient dense food crops 
>>>  grown
>>> in enriched soil with balanced  nutrients and  minerals.
>>>
>>>> I would also point out   that both the rice paddy system and chinampa
>>>>   systems
>>>> are soil based systems with a lot of water to  maintain  growth they 
are
>>>> not
>>>> by  any means hydroponic or  aquaponic. You might also throw in the  
fast
>>>> disappearing  mangroves as an example of  aquaponics but again you 
would
>>>>   be
>>>> wrong.
>>>
>>> In Eritrea they  are  developing an array of sustainable farming systems
>>>  that use sea  water, They impound water in lagoons and grow shrimp  in
>>> them. That  nutrient-rich water is released down  stream to fertilize 
and
>>>  irrigate salt-tolerant land  based crops. These crops are used to  
human
>>> as well as  livestock feed and to make rope or cloth. They  are also
>>>  propagating, planting and harvesting mangroves for  firewood,  
livestock
>>> feed and construction wood. They are not   reducing the populations of
>>> mangroves along the coastline  where  their project is located. There 
is 
>>>  a
>>> PBS documentary about this  well worth watching, maybe  viewable online 
>>> or
>>> for $$$ for the   dvd.
>>>
>>> LL
>>>
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