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  • From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] energy inputs and year round growing was Re: soilless crop production
  • Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 23:43:20 -0700 (PDT)

I would also wonder if the study addressed life cycle costs - i.e. the full
costs of extracting petroleum including cutting of trees or any other
environmental degradation. Or how about the cost of the Iraq war? Did the
people  count that in their 1500 mile study? I think it's really hard to get
any useful info out of studies that don't give at least a stab at bringing in
life cycle analysis. 

I just toured our local water facility today and found out that our
surrounding cities spend 70% of their energy on PUMPING WATER!  They pump it
hundreds of miles around the bay in the most circuitous route possible before
it ends up in our faucet. The problems that bad design have created on just
that one front are a bit mind numbing. I had some conception of what that bad
design might be, but pumping water in giant circles just for the hell of it
was not one of them. :-0

So, does transporting the water around in pipes count as transportation? LOL!
A lot of ag water comes from on site wells so it is less of an issue for ag,
I think. But when you get into life cycle analysis, things can get pretty
complicated.

How about the use of potable aquifers to transport coal slurry hundreds of
miles, instead of using trucks, so that California can pump water all over
the state?  Like they are doing with the Hopi water in Arizona? That starts
getting to be like one of those mind bending movies - Vanilla Sky, etc.  Yes,
we're using up water so we can have water, Alice. What's wrong with that? 

There are so many variables, as Frances pointed out. I think one can be safe
in saying that the less resources we use in design, the better, and strive to
make the system entirely self perpetuating. 

It's very interesting to see these studies coming out though - helps to know
what policy makers might be reading. We had the water people telling us about
this study, and that study. One of the studies "found" that graywater users
just increased their need for water. So it didnt' reduce water use from the
city. But what were they using it for? If they're growing food, it reduces
stresses elsewhere from agriculture. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] energy inputs and year round growing was Re:
soilless crop production

Frances, et al: Good points. I don't have the whole study with me, just those
numbers, but I assume it is for an average of US Ag output on some large
scale, e.g., commodity food.

What "84% of the energy expended is in production" says to me is that
production is where the improvement can be gotten, as you suggest. Local,
small-farm food, has a far better chance of having a small carbon footprint
than commodity food.

The leverage point is in the growing, more than in the transporting.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Sep 12, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Frances and David wrote:

> Thanks for sharing this and taking the topic in a new direction, Tony. I'd
> love to see this study, but the way I see it, there is more to this than
> meets the eye.
> I have heard that it would cost more, environmentally, to keep apples or
> pears fresh here in BC than it does to fly them up from Argentina, for
> instance. This might be true and certainly assuages my conscience in the
> buying of an organic pear from abroad. However, I feel that we need to look
> into the factors involved. It's easy to leave something out of the
> equation,
> isn't it?  And then, equations can and do change, don't they? Advances in
> refrigeration and/or air travel might change the outcome of the equation. A
> change from air to sea might change that, too. However, I am told that sea
> travel uses the dirtiest of oils, sadly.  Again, one piece of information
> coming across, with variables that could, in time, change.
> I am mostly wondering, though, whether the study differentiates between
> types of growing operations such as organic, conventional and gmo. Huge
> energy inputs in artificial fertilizers, pesticides, and ge seed creation.
> Huge inputs, and, I might add, sadly, losses. Are we talking about the type
> of food that is mass produced and mass distributed merely? If so, then we
> are leaving a whole lot out of the equation of possibilities, and narrow
> our
> path of selection based on a particular set of premises.
> Another possibility (a small point, but perhaps worthy for the sharing of
> different layers of the formula for consideration): perhaps the vertical
> garden removes some of the energy input from the harvesting side of the
> equation. It does, most certainly, allow for denser living while
> simultaneously, producing food, of that we can be fairly certain.  That, in
> turn, means, that if we are going to grow our own food, we can, by virtue
> of
> vertical gardening, live nearer one another and other destinations. This
> might be seen as an unexamined factor in the growing of vertical food,
> depending on the extent to which we want to examine our alternatives in an
> 'as if they were to multiply throughout the world' fashion.
> Once we move beyond conventional practices, there is a world of difference
> out there waiting to  be discovered. Consider foraging additions to the
> diet, and the food forest and hugelkultur techonologies for growing.
> Perhaps
> the energy saved through wise ways could go towards the vertical growing
> out
> of season/out of growing zone practices. And perhaps there is a way, just
> as
> rocket stoves have provided incredible methods for conservation of both
> energy and air quality, to affect these conditions with energy wise
> technology, too. As more and more people grow food in the vicinity of their
> homes, this increasingly becomes possible. Solariums off the front of
> houses, for instance, provides dual purpose for heating, and effective Zone
> 1 location for multi season cultivation. Perhaps lights for growing can
> also
> serve as lights for living. (This would be true for greens. The lights
> required for fruiting have warnings about looking at them) I grew indoor
> greens of the edible variety for a while, and I must say that the full
> spectrum lights were very cheering to the rainy winter here, as were the
> greens. Tricky part was the ecosystem aspect -- eventually bugs developed.
> Love the prospect of having an attached to the home food growing area some
> day.
>
> Just some thoughts on the matter.
> Hope this helps,
>
> Frances
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toby Hemenway
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 12:30 PM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] soilless crop production
>
> The sad thing about food miles is that transportation energy used in
> agriculture--the 1500 mile salad--is only 4% of the total energy involved
> in
> growing, processing, distributing and selling food. Reducing the distance
> food travels will have very, very little impact on the energy costs of the
> food system. Most of the energy use, 84%, is on-farm and processing.
> Vertical farming, whether renewable-based or not, uses more energy,
> wherever
> it is done, and doing it locally won't change that.
>
> (the source for the numbers is "The Impact of Household Food on Climate
> Change," Environmental Science and Technology, 2009, 42:3609 by Weber and
> Matthews)
>
> This really bummed me out when I heard it, since food-miles was such a good
> bludgeon to use for the local food argument. Ah, well. There are a lot of
> other reasons that food should be grown locally.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Joy Cernac wrote:
>
>> Re: vertical farming. The elephant in the room is the ENERGY required to
>> transport food. An energy cost-benefit analysis and side comparison would
>> need to be conducted between the average amount of transportation
>> fuel-related food miles (1500mi) from farm to plate, compared with the
>> amount of energy to generate power for localized vertical farms.
>> Obviously,
>> such as the point of Mr. Head, renewable energy would negate the
>> global-warming and fossil fuel-associated issues assciated with tower
>> gardening indoors. Renewables combined with localized organic
>> aquaculture-derived food production are the only sustainable answer in my
>> mind, as we are all crowded in polluted cities and are living in a
>> fossil-fuel propped-up nation. This model is being developed by countless
>> individuals right now, across the world - combined, closed-loop aeroponics
>> and aquaponics models that produce an ecosystem in working together. In
>> the
>> city, soil contamination is always an issue...so growing in water, locally
>> in the cities is the healthiest solution while we are getting our food
>> system off the grid. Once all our electricity is run on renewables and we
>> all have long-range electric vehicles that can transport food great
>> distances (we're looking at a couple hundred years out for that...), then
>> it will make environmental cost-benefit analytical sense to transport food
>> long distances. It's only a matter of time until the localized
>> aeroponic/hydroponic models are implemented on a grander scale and the
>> cities are thereby moved toward having a secure, sustainable food supply.
>>
>> Joy
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:28 AM, georg parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at> wrote:
>>
>>> Hm, in one of the linked articles it says
>>> "Indeed, even in today's single-storey glasshouses, artificial
>>> lighting is needed to enable year-round production. Thanet Earth, a 90-
>>> hectare facility which opened in Kent in 2008 and is the largest such
>>> site in Britain—it provides 15% of the British salad crop—requires
>>> its own mini power-station to provide its plants with light for 15
>>> hours a day during the winter months. This rather undermines the
>>> notion that vertical farming will save energy and cut carbon
>>> emissions, notes Mr Head, who has carried out several studies of the
>>> idea. Vertical farming will need cheap, renewable energy if it is to
>>> work, he says."
>>> Sure does not sound like a sustainable idea, or does it?
>>>
>>> Georg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 09.09.2012 um 04:25 schrieb venaurafarm:
>>>
>>>> On 9/8/2012 10:09 PM, venaurafarm wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That was it, efficient, effective ways to grow food in a space
>>>>> environment. Petri dish for cultured muscle tissue for the grill or
>>>>> microwave. This was part of a Google+ conversation in comments on a
>>>>> Google+ post with a friend.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still, sprouts need only water while grasses and other plants need
>>>>> growing medium that is soil-like i.e. sunflower, a recyclable
>>>>> scaffold
>>>>> for the roots to grow into with nutrient, similar with spirulina and
>>>>> chlorella, container and nutrient. In a space environment I would
>>>>> assume
>>>>> they would maintain a culture library of beneficial microorganisms
>>>>> for
>>>>> use in food production and sewage treatment, recycling humanure as
>>>>> soil-like growing medium and nutrients and secondary biological
>>>>> treatment of liquid back to potable water; they already do this.
>>>>
>>>> More of my comments in this thread:
>>>>
>>>> Needless to say we need to conserve and protect our best farmland
>>>> for production of the cleanest, most natural, most nutritious food for
>>>> mankind. Elimination of toxins, contaminants, gmo's, all categories of
>>>> pesticides will be mandatory. Full engagement with soil building
>>>> programs for 1) season extension 2) water and nutrient conservation 3)
>>>> building soil quality through the right kind of tillage, cropping
>>>> system, application of soil amendments, mineral, macronutrient,
>>>> beneficial organisms will also be mandatory. Using permaculture
>>>> methods
>>>> will make all this possible. Here's to health and happiness!
>>>>
>>>> <>
>>>>
>>>> Need less food with better, more complete, maximum nutrition. This is
>>>> here now. Food combining for maximum digestion for maximum nutrition
>>>> for
>>>> maximum health and longevity. Raw foods is one of the strategies
>>>> used to
>>>> achieve this goal. Food combining for raw foods dieting = combining
>>>> foods at a meal that are compatible, not antagonistic, i.e. no acid
>>>> foods with starchy foods, only one kind of protein at a meal, no
>>>> protein
>>>> with starchy foods, eat separately; vegetables with starches or
>>>> vegetables with protein, fruit alone: sweet along, acid alone, some
>>>> subacid can be eaten with vegetables, i.e. peaches and tomatoes with
>>>> vegetable salads - there's lots to this type of raw foods diet. For
>>>> more
>>>> info obtain a used copy of Viktoras Kulvinskas book: Survival In The
>>>> 21st Century: A Planetary Healer's Handbook (with artwork by Peter
>>>> Max).
>>>> This is a really good book. Other works include those of Ann Wigmore
>>>> on
>>>> sprouts, raw foods and cultured foods such as seed cheese. There's
>>>> lots
>>>> on all these people on the Web, try a Google search. Add traditional
>>>> Japanese macrobiotics nutrition - very excellent, controlled dieting,
>>>> excellent nutrition, fermented probiotic foods, kim chee, kraut, kefir
>>>> and more.
>>>>
>>>> With permaculture and natural, biological, biointensive agriculture in
>>>> harmony with nature and Gaia, the Earth will be able to support life
>>>> for
>>>> much longer than with the present dominant method, chemical and gmo.
>>>> Tree of Life Web Project  http://tolweb.org/tree/
>>>>
>>>> There is vertical farming, a fascinating new concept though expensive:
>>>>
>>>> An important book on this subject:
>>>> The Vertical Farm: Feeding the World in the 21st Century by Dickson D.
>>>> Despommier (Oct 12, 2010)
>>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/The-Vertical-Farm-Feeding-Century/dp/B0055X6F1A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347125638&sr=8-1&keywords=vertical+farm
>>>>
>>>> The Vertical Farm Project - Agriculture for the 21st Century and ...
>>>> www.verticalfarm.com
>>>>
>>>> Images for Vertical Farming
>>>>
>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=Vertical+Farming&hl=en&client=firefox-beta&hs=e84&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvnsb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=83tLULnLBoH00gGz1YDABQ&ved=0CC4QsAQ
>>>>
>>>> Growing Skyscrapers: The Rise of Vertical Farms: Scientific American
>>>>
>>> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-rise-of-vertical-farms
>>>> Oct 24, 2009 – Growing crops in city skyscrapers would use less
>>>> water
>>>> and fossil fuel than outdoor farming, eliminate agricultural runoff,
>>>> and
>>>> provide fresh ...
>>>>
>>>> <>
>>>>
>>>> Hydroponics, aquaponics, aeroponics do that. It is a matter of
>>>> designing
>>>> equipment and processes scaled to the need at hand. Nothing wrong with
>>>> automation, auto-harvesting and placing in refrigeration or prep for a
>>>> meal. Much work has been done with growing blue-green algae and
>>>> chlorella; that could easily be scaled
>>>> to home food production. SPROUTS! Grow sprouts in trays and recycle
>>>> the
>>>> growing medium and stubble. Wheatgrass, barley grass, alfalfa,
>>>> sunflower
>>>> (black oil seed), buckwheat (buckwheat lettuce) are gourmet food. I
>>>> have
>>>> eaten all of them except barley grass. I think sprouts could become a
>>>> major source of plant-based nutrition when depending on soilless
>>>> growth
>>>> medium. Very many vegetable seeds can be sprouted for human
>>>> consumption.
>>>> Next, consider the potential for soilless growth of certain wild,
>>>> exotic, heirloom, international foods, including some fruits. What
>>>> about fruit; how could one do without that. Quality meat grown in a
>>>> Petri dish sounds like future food. Google "future food" and see
>>>> pfaf.org, Plants For A Future. I think cultured meat product could be
>>>> made to taste great. "Seed" or starter tissue could be frozen for
>>>> years
>>>> to ensure a supply for future use.
>>>>
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>From justin.hahn@gmail.com Thu Sep 13 03:39:28 2012
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Subject: [permaculture] scholarly articles about rotational grazing
practices on campuses?
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I'm studying attitudes toward the use of animals to manage lawns and woody
perennials on college and other campuses. I haven't found much literature
on the topic in the various scholarly databases (EBSCO, JSToR, etc), and
was wondering if you permies have any good articles to suggest?




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