permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

I wasn't suggesting Darren come here for the conference! This is a national 
conference, why not stick to our own crew? In the past, he and others have 
been criticized by some because of traveling internationally by air. There 
was no thought to what good they were doing. If someone in that country could 
do as good a job, then they should be hired. But often that is not the case. 
And most of those who travel make it a point to train people locally who can 
take over. Under those circumstances I see advantages to flying.

Another example: a lot of positive change was created by experts flying to 
Haiti. There are many thousands of people using compost toilets and knowing 
how to build and run them safely, now. The compost is being used in some 
cases to grow trees to reforest the heavily deforested areas or local food. 
Was that worth the plane trip? 

I add up: some of the economic injustices being reversed, cholera and other 
human waste generated diseases gotten under control in those areas (maybe 
hundreds or thousands of lives saved), reforestation - by many thousands of 
trees, many people more aware of the principles and tools of permaculture, 
Haitians meeting some white people who weren't there just to rip them off or 
"take over", local food supplies being regenerated, etc. I think that is more 
than worth it. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
www.meetup.com/createclearwater


________________________________
 From: Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org 
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Nth American Conference
 
I don't know that I would recommend forbidding people to come by 
airplane, but I think the conference can encourage responsible travel 
methods.

I think it is very easy for privileged white people to make excuses for 
damaging the planet.  I know that I -- as a privileged white guy -- am 
really good at making those excuses because I of course think that I am 
one special guy who is doing a lot of important work. But that is 
exactly why I quit soliciting and accepting presentation opportunities 
that require air travel.  I am going to the Occupy the Food Prize events 
in mid October at the invitation of the Des Catholic Worker community, 
but that's a bus trip there and back so I can do that. I've also been 
invited to a Catholic Worker farm gathering in February, but I am not 
going to that because it is the week after Ash Wednesday and I would 
have to fly there and back in order to meet my other commitments here.  
I mentioned this increasing lack of interest in travel to a spiritual 
advisor and he said, "Bob, this is evidence of the growing sanity of 
your life." I shocked by that and of course was immediately tempted to 
book several long distance airline trips since I am not sure that I want 
to be thought of as sane but I guess the sanity had so grabbed hold of 
me that I didn't follow through on the urge.

I think it is a violation of the ethics of permaculture not to question 
our activities that damage the planet, especially if we are privileged 
white people.

We may decide to continue to do them anyway, I continue to drive my 1995 
Geo Metro about 600 miles total each month, but I keep a record of that 
and my goal is to reduce my driving each year.  I was driving 15,000 
miles/year when I made that decision, and have cut my driving in half 
since coming to that understanding with myself.

And I stand by my suggestion that we should be careful in how we develop 
our structures.   Authenticity is important to all aspects of 
permaculture and that includes the way we organize our meetings which 
includes the way we travel to our meetings and what the consequences are 
for the planet of our activities.

Regarding Mr. Doherty. . . Why we would want to drag someone all the way 
from Australia to our North American event?  Why would he want to come 
here?  If I was Australian, it would take handcuffs and military force 
to drag me into the United States of America.

Bob Waldrop, Okie City




On 8/11/2012 7:51 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> http://www.iata.org/pressroom/facts_figures/fact_sheets/pages/environment.aspx
>
>
> http://www.seat61.com/CO2flights.htm
>
>
> http://environment.about.com/od/greenlivingdesign/a/fly_vs_drive.htm
>
>
> Though plane flight creates significantly more carbon footprint, I am not 
> completely opposed to using planes - it really depends on whether or not 
> what you're doing is going to significantly offset the use. What if the 
> trip would lower pollution and land abuse over the long term, at 
> significant gain? I think it's ridiculous to question the use of planes by 
> people like Darren Doherty, for instance, when he is planting thousands of 
> trees or revitilizing significant acreage in a way that could last for 
> generations.
>
> I prefer trains myself whenever possible - quite comfortable, you can walk 
> around on them, and I can catch up on all the reading I might otherwise 
> never get around to. Plus in some areas, the scenery is fabulous. I saw my 
> first bald eagle in flight riding in a train through a remote wilderness 
> area. He flew right alongside my window for a bit.
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
> www.meetup.com/createclearwater
>
>
> ________________________________
>   From: Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net>
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 7:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Nth American Conference
>  
> I hope that people don't travel to an event like this by air.   If
> people are too busy to take the bus or train, then they shouldn't go.
>
> I think we ought to be careful about what structures we set up in
> permaculture.  If we set up structures that encourage people to do evil
> -- such as financially support the airline industry which is one of the
> major contributors to global warming emissions -- then we aren't doing
> permaculture.
>
> Attempting to use permaculture for a bad end is always a type 1 error.
> Since the journey is as important as the destination, indeed, it might
> be said that the direction and method of the journey is the definition
> of the end, we need to be careful and cautious about the means we choose
> to achieve our ends, lest our ends be distorted beyond recognition.
>
> Bob Waldrop, Oklahoma City
>
> On 8/10/2012 8:41 PM, Michael Pilarski wrote:
>> Some of us have thought about, and talked about, a North American PC 
>> Convergence at some length.  Much of it not on the list serve.
>>
>> I have proposed that the national be rotated around between the regional 
>> convergences already happening.  Still waiting to hear if any regions want 
>> to volunteer to do the first one.
>>
>> Another scenario is for a consortium of organizers from different 
>> bioregions to come together to organize the national.  The more regions 
>> represented the better.
>>
>> In the first scenario the national would rotate around the country 
>> sometime on the coasts sometimes in the middle, etc.
>>
>> In the 2nd scenario a location could be picked relatively central to the 
>> country.  Ideally with good access to a big airport and even more 
>> important (I think) on a major Amtrak rail hub.  Another criteria would be 
>> an active local permaculture group to help do the local work needed.
>>
>> Chicago is a great railroad hub but doesn't have a strong permie group (to 
>> my knowledge).  Cincinnati, Denver? Bloomington, Indiana? Ideas? At this 
>> point any good offer by a strong group can be put forward.
>>
>> I imagine that in every region there would be a few or a dozen people who 
>> would work to make it happen.
>>
>> Lead time.  6 months would be good.  3 months minimum.  The networks are 
>> fast these days.
>>
>> It seems like part of the goal would be to bring a lot of the movement 
>> old-timers together along with a lot of the course teachers and the new 
>> blood.
>>
>> The main purposes being to build the movement, exchange strategies, build 
>> networks etc.  Not permaculture 101 how to do a sheet mulch.
>>
>> A few thoughts.
>>
>> Michael Pilarski
>>
>>
>> Michael Pilarski
>>
>> --- On Fri, 8/10/12, Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Nth American Conference
>> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Date: Friday, August 10, 2012, 4:39 PM
>>
>> What time frame are we looking at? When would we want to do this? I have 
>> reached out to some on the rez and they have expressed interest.
>>    
>> Koreen Brennan
>>
>> www.growpermaculture.com
>> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>> www.meetup.com/createclearwater
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>     From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:13 PM
>> Subject: [permaculture] Nth American Conference
>>    
>> Nth American Convergence...keep the ball rolling before the moss takes
>> over. Shall we pursue the options suggested for the venue being in
>> Dakota...can we have more detailed information on this possible scenario to
>> see if it can be developed to reality.
>>
>> This subject  / event is mooted as a Nth American Conference NOT a national
>> USA Conference for the fact of building up the Continental Regional network
>> to form part of the continental regions of the world as a sub group of the
>> international convergence (IPC)..Steve Hart
>> _______________________________________________
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I really appreciate the enthusiasm! It would be a pretty spiritual event, 
that is for sure. I feel the outcome might be very different than if we have 
a convergence that is in an established area and focused on surveyed 
interests/needs. It would end up being pulled by the needs of the Lakota. I 
am not convinced that is the correct sequence for us, as a body, or even the 
greatest good, overall. We need to address the destructive machine that is 
doing all of us in, the Lakota worse than many, and being more organized 
gives us an advantage. If we meet in one of the established areas, we will 
focus more fully on that. There certainly might be some good karma involved 
in bringing a lot of good energy and some real changes there tho, too. I am 
not objective about it, I would love to see some real energy aimed there, for 
positive change, and we are some of the few who could really bring that.

I will support whatever location gets the most support from permaculture 
elders and people who have done these convergences before. I can see the 
advantage of doing the first one in an established area. Pine Ridge would 
need some very good support from multiple people to pull off what we're 
proposing. I am under no illusion that I could rally it on my own - it would 
need agreement and commitment from enough people who know what they're doing. 

One reason I suggested it is because it needs attention from multiple people 
and they are ready in many ways. Some concerted attention over a couple year 
period might transform that place; it would  be an interesting experiment to 
see if we could do that. But there are undoubtedly other places that is true 
of too, that would set a good example for the out of control consumerist 
society. 

There is a certain very attractive irony and sense of justice in the idea of 
co-creating an ideal sustainable design at Pine Ridge. No building codes, for 
one thing! And it's been competing with their next door brother, Rosebud rez, 
as "the worst county in the US", in which hundreds of millions of dollars 
have been sunk into a seemingly bottomless pit of hopelessness. If 
permaculture made a real difference there, it is likely to get some 
attention. Maybe some we wouldn't want tho too, as a young and unorganized 
body. 

I've watched arguments back and forth about concerns regarding going 
mainstream (coming back to the idea of putting our energies strategically in 
an urban area somewhere). But I don't think we have a moral choice, frankly, 
to do otherwise. It is up to us to maintain the integrity of permaculture in 
the face of vested interests, but I feel that we do need to engage them and 
present permaculture to them. And keep communicating what permaculture - and 
real sustainability and regeneration  - is, without compromise.

I'm just laying it all out there. Maybe we can apply our design skills and 
stage this national convergence for the largest yields rather than go off of 
emotion (which I am inclined to do regarding social injustice). Where could 
we meet and obtain the largest yields from it? What could we do when we meet, 
to get the biggest yields? 

One possibility for the rez would be to do a mini-convergence or specialty 
convergence up at Pine Ridge, for the purpose of regenerating Indian lands. 
There was an indigenous permaculture conference last year in Colorado. I'm 
just trying to get people up there to help with the spring planting, lol...  
I like your idea of combining/stacking functions, locations, etc. 

At Pine Ridge, spring planting is April/May (earlier for trees, later for 
crops), and I will be there, one way or other, for that next year. 

To give an idea of the weather, it can freeze in May and hail golf balls in 
July. It can freeze in late Aug or Sept. It routinely freezes in April but 
that is when I may need to go, to get some cover crops in so they get enough 
rain. The rainy season is in April, mostly, maybe into May. Then rain is hit 
or miss after that. It can pass 100 degrees in June, or May, and the next day 
be cold and hailing. When we were there last year, we got trees planted and 
everything in, it was warm and sunny, and then I planted tomatoes with a 6 
year old I mentor up there, and it froze that night - after the frost date of 
15 May. The weatherman predicted upper 30's. :-(  

I would immensely welcome collective wisdom and creativity up there (and also 
strong backs and arms :-). It is the most challenging environment I've dealt 
with by far, physically.

But on the other hand, there is a lot of heart there; there are microclimates 
and we can create them (i'm hoping). The land is breathtakingly beautiful, 
wide open spaces, beautiful skies, something out of the 1900's when land was 
land. The history is palpable. I do love the rez, it gets under your skin. 

I get what you're saying about calling it the rez. That is a term of 
affection for many, but it does have connotations. Rusell Means calls it the 
sovereign Lakota Nation....

So to sum up, I would want commitment from an experienced team of convergence 
creators before even thinking of attempting anything at the rez. And I will 
fully and actively support another location that someone commits to 
organizing and has the resources to do so. I think Michael's ideas make 
sense. And I think a national needs to happen sooner rather than later. 
 

Koreen Brennan

 

________________________________
 From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Nth American Conference
 
Nth American Continental , National and Regional Conference

Cory Bob Skeeta  et al...great work guys...I reckon just call it
Cory...seems you will get all the support you will need. Sure there will be
criticism but that's the reality of the anarchistic family we are part
of...and its all goood...after all, the negative is the positive the
problem is the solution ...right ?

Pine Ridge rings real big positive bells in my consciousness....it would
have so much meaning and this could be part of the aims and objectives.
Perhaps a prior PDC of 3 wks at PR could set the tone...when does the cold
recede..spring ? April ? when is best planting time ? so April/May 2013
could work and not compete with Cuba but be a good energy to lead into
Cuba. I may even consider attending myself enroute to Cuba ? As I mentioned
to Skeeta I have a cousin who owns a ranch in NE Montana just outside the
small town of Outlook...Ken Hart, ex rodeo champ. My grandfather was born
in Kicking Horse pass in the middle of the rockies betwn Calgary and
Vancouver his mum was a blackfoot indian...so its overdue to do a little of
that family reconnection along with the PC family cross pollination.

Did you use another name instead of reservation...perhaps this could be
energised as well..reservation to many has a lot of negative connotations
and its time for change...in many ways. Reminds me of the early days of
waste recycling campaigns...we changed the name of dumps and tips to
Resource Recovery Parks...there is a lot in a name as Apple and Google and
Virgin show us.

The survey sounds like a smart move as does buses and trains. But, Bob, are
we being conned by the petrochem industry. After all they are in bed with
Monsanto aren't they or one in the same ? And, yes, most of all a tree
planting action....put out a species list for every participant to bring at
least five of in order to be accepted as a participant. Also create that
hands on part of the course to actually show something for our energies.
Leaving something positive and tactile behind as a statement of respect,
gratitude and thanks..

Could it be a regional national and continental conference all in one ?
Would set a great precedence and get around the clambering of overlapping
events that could look to occur in this revitalised agenda of networks
connecting. Then we may get a good mix of participants those that want the
regional, those the national and then the continemtal to lead into the
international in Cuba...wow..cross pollination in the Dakotas ?

go hard guys..Steve Hart

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:48 AM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net> wrote:

> I hope that people don't travel to an event like this by air.   If
> people are too busy to take the bus or train, then they shouldn't go.
>
> I think we ought to be careful about what structures we set up in
> permaculture.  If we set up structures that encourage people to do evil
> -- such as financially support the airline industry which is one of the
> major contributors to global warming emissions -- then we aren't doing
> permaculture.
>
> Attempting to use permaculture for a bad end is always a type 1 error.
> Since the journey is as important as the destination, indeed, it might
> be said that the direction and method of the journey is the definition
> of the end, we need to be careful and cautious about the means we choose
> to achieve our ends, lest our ends be distorted beyond recognition.
>
> Bob Waldrop, Oklahoma City
>
> On 8/10/2012 8:41 PM, Michael Pilarski wrote:
> > Some of us have thought about, and talked about, a North American PC
> Convergence at some length.  Much of it not on the list serve.
> >
> > I have proposed that the national be rotated around between the regional
> convergences already happening.  Still waiting to hear if any regions want
> to volunteer to do the first one.
> >
> > Another scenario is for a consortium of organizers from different
> bioregions to come together to organize the national.  The more regions
> represented the better.
> >
> > In the first scenario the national would rotate around the country
> sometime on the coasts sometimes in the middle, etc.
> >
> > In the 2nd scenario a location could be picked relatively central to the
> country.  Ideally with good access to a big airport and even more important
> (I think) on a major Amtrak rail hub.  Another criteria would be an active
> local permaculture group to help do the local work needed.
> >
> > Chicago is a great railroad hub but doesn't have a strong permie group
> (to my knowledge).  Cincinnati, Denver? Bloomington, Indiana? Ideas? At
> this point any good offer by a strong group can be put forward.
> >
> > I imagine that in every region there would be a few or a dozen people
> who would work to make it happen.
> >
> > Lead time.  6 months would be good.  3 months minimum.  The networks are
> fast these days.
> >
> > It seems like part of the goal would be to bring a lot of the movement
> old-timers together along with a lot of the course teachers and the new
> blood.
> >
> > The main purposes being to build the movement, exchange strategies,
> build networks etc.  Not permaculture 101 how to do a sheet mulch.
> >
> > A few thoughts.
> >
> > Michael Pilarski
> >
> >
> > Michael Pilarski
> >
> > --- On Fri, 8/10/12, Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Nth American Conference
> > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Friday, August 10, 2012, 4:39 PM
> >
> > What time frame are we looking at? When would we want to do this? I have
> reached out to some on the rez and they have expressed interest.
> >
> > Koreen Brennan
> >
> > www.growpermaculture.com
> > www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
> > www.meetup.com/createclearwater
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >   From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:13 PM
> > Subject: [permaculture] Nth American Conference
> >
> > Nth American Convergence...keep the ball rolling before the moss takes
> > over. Shall we pursue the options suggested for the venue being in
> > Dakota...can we have more detailed information on this possible scenario
> to
> > see if it can be developed to reality.
> >
> > This subject  / event is mooted as a Nth American Conference NOT a
> national
> > USA Conference for the fact of building up the Continental Regional
> network
> > to form part of the continental regions of the world as a sub group of
> the
> > international convergence (IPC)..Steve Hart
> > _______________________________________________
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> > _______________________________________________
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>
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> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>



-- 
Kia ora
[image: Picture]
Steve Hart
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart
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>From lflj@bellsouth.net  Sun Aug 12 18:44:43 2012
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Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 18:44:39 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
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Subject: [permaculture] Need donation of PC desktop components
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Need donation of PC desktop components

I am BADLY in need of new components to keep my computer running...the
one I am using is on its last legs and I have no backup other than a
laptop which is not adequate for my needs.

I have to be able to run Win XP and need at least one PCI slot, one more
if I have to add my own video card (if cpu on motherboard does
not have video or audio). I prefer Intel components (MB & CPU).

new 600 or 750 watt power supply
Intel CPU, I5 or I3
4 gigs memory, or more
Intel motherboard that will run Win XP and has at least one PCI slot
A good video card or a motherboard with good video on it.

Any donations sent my way would be much appreciated.

Lawrence