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  • From: Oystein Tandberg <oystein_tandberg@yahoo.no>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Pernicious, infectious memes--OT
  • Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 23:53:38 +0100 (BST)

Steven,

"If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that germs
seek their natural habitat—diseased tissue—rather than being the cause of the
diseased tissue; e.g., mosquitoes seek the stagnant water, but do not cause
the pool to become stagnant. Rudolph Virchow (Father of Pathology)"





--- Den tor 2012-05-03 skrev Eisenhauer <eisenhauerdesign@earthlink.net>:

> Fra: Eisenhauer <eisenhauerdesign@earthlink.net>
> Emne: Re: [permaculture] Pernicious, infectious memes--OT
> Til: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Dato: Torsdag 3. mai 2012 18.33
> Toby,
> Many doctors I have had the privilege to learn from talk
> about the health of
> a plant or animal as the determining factor in disease, not
> necessarily the
> infective agent.  In agricultural theory Albrecht's
> work on soil health as
> it relates to plant and animal health  makes some very
> strong arguments for
> a health paradigm versus a disease paradigm.  He was
> forced out of academia
> because of his unconventional broad based referencing to
> other disciplines
> in his work as a soil scientist.  Francis Chaboussou's
> research into plant
> health is another eye opener.  He was forced out
> academia because he proved
> that the toxic rescue chemistry industry was essentially
> creating the
> disease and insect infestation through improper
> fertilization in order to
> sell the solutions; insecticides, herbicides, fungicides, at
> great cost to
> the farmer and our biosphere.  Thankfully Permaculture
> is questing for real
> answers!
> Keep it coming!
> Steven
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]
> On Behalf Of Toby Hemenway
> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 4:08 PM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: [permaculture] Pernicious, infectious memes--OT
>
> Okay, I'm still thinking about this because these arguments
> are used to
> promote such dangerous memes (a form of infectious virus),
> and I love the
> way logic demolishes them. Here's what's up with, for
> example,
>
> >  an infection is always a secondary illness;
> infections arise after tissue
> has been damaged, by malnutrition or intoxication.
>
> This relies on circular logic: "a virus can only infect a
> damaged organism,
> because if an organism gets infected, it must be damaged or
> that would not
> happen." It assumes what it intends to prove, and you can't
> get out of that
> one until you see it is circular. It's certainly true that
> healthy organisms
> tend to get fewer infections. This is because their immune
> systems work much
> better. But it does not then follow that an organism must be
> unhealthy in
> order to be infected. It does not undermine the fact that
> viruses alone are
> often sufficient to cause infection, and mountains of
> evidence exist to show
> this. The only evidence against it are some thought
> experiments ("then why
> does X happen?") and some circular reasoning like that
> above. The main
> reason that viruses do not routinely infect healthy
> creatures  is because
> viruses have been in an arms race against the immune system
> for eons. The
> immune system is full of machinery to block viral and
> bacterial infection.
> Viruses are f  ull of machinery specifically designed
> to evade the immune
> system (like, they've stolen receptors from the immune
> system so they can
> neutralize immune boosting hormones; they wouldn't do that
> if they weren't
> infectious). Sometimes one wins, sometimes the other. To
> claim that not
> getting an infection is a sign that viruses don't infect is
> to confuse
> statistics with function. Viruses would not contain that
> machinery if
> evading the immune system--infecting a host--were not
> critically important
> for them. And the immune system would not mount a huge
> response, every time,
> to viral challenge if viruses by themselves were not a big
> threat to
> organisms; that machinery would not exist.
>
> In my experience, virologists tend to be smarter than the
> people denying the
> viral model, and they understand well-reasoned arguments
> much better.
>
> Many people cannot develop or make it through chains of
> reasoning like this
> and so they fall for cleverly crafted zombie arguments, like
> those of the
> Creationist/Intelligent Design propagandists. Our school
> system specifically
> discourages critical thinking so that we will be compliant
> and susceptible
> to corporate and government memes ("humans aren't in charge
> of climate"
> being a good example), and one side effect is that crackpot
> theories like
> "viruses don't cause infection" and "life requires a
> designer" get far more
> traction than they would in an educated society. We owe it
> to ourselves, the
> planet, and our children to learn how to think critically.
>  
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
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