permaculture

[kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>]

hi folks,

I realize in all of these exchanges I have never personally done what i want
to do now- express my sincere and deep gratitude and respect for all the
elders on this list, (and those elders who are not) who have given so much
of their lives, and work, and passion, and so much more to this work...

Scott, I haven't expressed it before; much respect for your work.   I hope
this has come across in these exchanges, but if it hasn't I hope it does
now.  I even have respect and affection for you too LL! as do many others on
this list it seems as they can instinctively feel you are a 'giver', like so
many others in the PC world,  despite all your easily observed flaws.  ( I
have  em too LL!)

I am also amazed and filled with gratitude for all of the really bright
folks on this list and in  PC circles in general.  Gotta be some of the
smartest
people out there, and that is heartening.

What I have learned in some of these recent exchanges, and what i feel in PC
circles in general, is that there is a bit of a generational change
happening.   While the young people being drawn to PC may have read some of
our great thinkers and writers of the "past" (i know, you are still
around!), they are probably even more influenced by folks like Derrick
Jensen these days.

Things DO speed up i believe.  The types of change that this coming
generation of PC folks will see, and be part of shaping, are some of the
changes that the elders have as of yet only predicted.  The sense of urgency
in young people is a powerful force, that deserves respect, honor even, and
if we can, is a place to take leadership from, not dictate to from
"experience".

There were some deep themes that were expressed recently here. Themes that
it seems to me are foremost on young folks mind, and that will only
accelerate and increase in their importance:

1) Questions about how to relate to the forces, systems, and structures of
EMPIRE, especially here in the US.  Scott and others efforts with the Nat
Guard opens up a great window to examining these issues, but it is not the
only realm where PC and empire rub up against each other. The whole "aid"
world is part of that, including haiti, and everywhere else we work in these
areas.  Being on the lookout for unintended consequences, and assisting the
forces of 'disaster capitalism' are only a couple of the obstacles we face.

2) Questions about - fairness, equity, "return of surplus", redistribution
of wealth, reparations- choose your wording, but however you look at it, it
is going to be crucial esp as we go (further)  over the curve into decent
and decline. So much of PC is currently practiced, taught, organized etc
within privilegded circles, and this is not just a 'moral' issue, but a deep
ethical one as it challenges our ability to be effective in our goals.
Fortunately lots of folks are conscious about this, and working on it.  I
believe Rafter Sass may well be as influential in these areas of thinking
for the young folks as some of the elder writers have been on other PC
issues in the past.   http://www.liberationecology.org/

3)  Questions about HOW we strategize, and organize etc.  I think this can
be at least partially expressed in this -difference- between "radical" and
"liberal" approaches to social change.  There has always been alot of
expression of "liberal" beliefs in PC circles in the past - the belief that
"aha moments" in individuals can be the drivers for social change and
transformation, and that individual "change" is the key to our success.  I
think in general most young people these days resonate more with "radical"
solutions though.  That doesn't mean that radicals completely dismiss that
individual changes occur, and that they aren't important, but the 'radicals'
just feel that this type of change is simply not enough, and never will be,
and that we have to approach/attack the systems that cause the problems, not
just the individuals.*

Lierre Keith  is another thinker* that i believe has as much influence on
young people as anyone in PC circles does, and she illustrates the
difference between radical and liberal thinking very well:
http://www.inthewake.org/keith1.html

Again, much respect and appreciation for everyone who has contributed to
these discussions.  I must say they do not make me feel discouraged overall,
but just the opposite!

One little thing- Cory's recent post below troubled me a bit. It was
focussed on me, tho relates to others, so i want to respond real fast.
Cory, this is another example of "dismissiveness", and a personal attack on
me that i have no way of "defending" against.  I am not personally troubled
by it, as I can speak (and be respected or not) for myself, and have
confidence in my voice, experience, and analysis, but i fear that these
types of examples of "attack", that do not even try to adress legitimate
points/concerns, and only dismiss them by ridiculing/demeaning/disempowering
the author, do not benefit anyone, and only support a pattern of heirarchy,
privilege, power etc that isn't healthy.  I fully agree with you on the need
for politeness, respect, and civilty, and if you have read any of my posts,
you will see that i have tried my best! (in a very difficult context i might
add) to embody these principles, while still remaining honest in my
beliefs.  And one more thing- pls read Lierre Keith' s interview above.  You
have been the most passionate, and strident (even militant!) "liberal" voice
on this list, and it would probably behoove you to read some of what the
'kids' are reading if you want to influence them.

peace all,
kevin


re:

[permaculture] civility, respect and reputation

Cory Brennan cory8570 at yahoo.com
Thu Sep 16 19:24:36 EDT 2010

I sincerely appreciate the respect that some cultures afford those who have
life experience - those who have honed their skills for decades rather than
months or years. In some cultures, these things are given real weight and
value - young people understand that elders may actually know and see some
things that they do not, and they approach those with more experience with
respect and an open mind, believing that there are things they can learn
from someone who has "been there, done that."

I have seen very little of that sort of awareness from a few of the young
people on this list. The conversation started with a critique by you, Kevin,
of a project you had few facts about and still haven't bothered to get.

There is nothing about how you have approached this subject that would
indicate to me that you have any legitimate viewpoint that has been well
thought out, based on "thoughtful and protracted observation" of what you
are questioning. Why should Scott or anyone else give credence to your
viewpoint when you don't even bother to find out the facts before forming
one?

As someone who is somewhere in between youthful egoism and elder stature, I
do appreciate what those with more experience have to say, and I do consider
that just possibly, maybe, I do not know better than them, how to do what
they have been doing for decades.

In some cases, I have seen that I could bring wisdom or insight to someone
with more experience than I have had. But that is only after I have spent at
least a bit of time observing and understanding

1. what they actually did
2. why they did it
3. what the actual outcome was

Kevin, if you ever want to be taken seriously by those with more experience
and know-how than you have, you may want to consider that you could learn
something from that experience and know-how, and that it actually is worth
something.

It takes some people a lifetime to discover that for themselves - only when
they become an "elder" themselves do they realize the value of experience.
And some people never figure it out because they don't tend to learn from
their experience so it really doesn't ever come to have any real value to
them.

Best, Cory