permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

Kevin,

I have no issue with anything you've said here and respect your expression. 
Perhaps you will at some point be able to look at why and how I found the 
post I was responding to offensive. 

You may be surprised to hear that I've read Jensen and others like him 
thoroughly, have spent 20 years as an activist, and understand very well the 
radical approach to things. Been there, done that. I am in no way suggesting 
it is a bad thing or undesirable. We all have our paths and there is a place 
for that one. My point is that there is a place for paths outside of 
radicalism as well. 

You have continued to make assumptions about where I and others are coming 
from, before taking the time to get to know much about us. Most of us have 
made that error, I am certainly prone to it at times, but I try not to do 
that, and that has been my main point, and something that hasn't really been 
acknowledged (if it has, I missed it which is very possible). 

I know quite a few young people who are more liberal than radical - I know 
more liberal young people than radical. And I know quite a few elders who are 
still radical. Not all young people approach things as you do, Kevin.  

Diversity in the system is a good, healthy thing. What I'm seeking is 
tolerance for viewpoints and approaches to regenerating the system outside of 
one's own paradigm. Kevin, I wish you great success with your approach to 
healing the world, and I hope you can do the same for me. 

I've been working with governments and "aid" organizations in Haiti to 
regenerate that area, but I will not be taken in by "disaster capitalists" or 
other unhealthy, vested interests. I am thoroughly aware of their modus 
operendi and why it is not sustainable. Because I'm willing to interface with 
these organizations instead of isolating myself, I feel I have more of a 
chance to prevent things from going in that direction.  I would hope that my 
fellow permauclturists would not try to interfere with or publicly diss what 
I'm doing without first trying to find out exactly what it is, and what the 
results are. On the other hand, I have no problem with people who choose to 
avoid those systems entirely and strictly work outside of them. 

We each have our way of doing and seeing things, and I say, Vive la 
difference. 

Best, Cory

--- On Fri, 9/17/10, kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] an expression of- civility, respect and (regard 
> for) reputation
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 11:27 AM
> hi folks,
> 
> I realize in all of these exchanges I have never personally
> done what i want
> to do now- express my sincere and deep gratitude and
> respect for all the
> elders on this list, (and those elders who are not) who
> have given so much
> of their lives, and work, and passion, and so much more to
> this work...
> 
> Scott, I haven't expressed it before; much respect for your
> work.   I hope
> this has come across in these exchanges, but if it hasn't I
> hope it does
> now.  I even have respect and affection for you too
> LL! as do many others on
> this list it seems as they can instinctively feel you are a
> 'giver', like so
> many others in the PC world,  despite all your easily
> observed flaws.  ( I
> have  em too LL!)
> 
> I am also amazed and filled with gratitude for all of the
> really bright
> folks on this list and in  PC circles in
> general.  Gotta be some of the
> smartest
> people out there, and that is heartening.
> 
> What I have learned in some of these recent exchanges, and
> what i feel in PC
> circles in general, is that there is a bit of a
> generational change
> happening.   While the young people being
> drawn to PC may have read some of
> our great thinkers and writers of the "past" (i know, you
> are still
> around!), they are probably even more influenced by folks
> like Derrick
> Jensen these days.
> 
> Things DO speed up i believe.  The types of change
> that this coming
> generation of PC folks will see, and be part of shaping,
> are some of the
> changes that the elders have as of yet only
> predicted.  The sense of urgency
> in young people is a powerful force, that deserves respect,
> honor even, and
> if we can, is a place to take leadership from, not dictate
> to from
> "experience".
> 
> There were some deep themes that were expressed recently
> here. Themes that
> it seems to me are foremost on young folks mind, and that
> will only
> accelerate and increase in their importance:
> 
> 1) Questions about how to relate to the forces, systems,
> and structures of
> EMPIRE, especially here in the US.  Scott and others
> efforts with the Nat
> Guard opens up a great window to examining these issues,
> but it is not the
> only realm where PC and empire rub up against each other.
> The whole "aid"
> world is part of that, including haiti, and everywhere else
> we work in these
> areas.  Being on the lookout for unintended
> consequences, and assisting the
> forces of 'disaster capitalism' are only a couple of the
> obstacles we face.
> 
> 2) Questions about - fairness, equity, "return of surplus",
> redistribution
> of wealth, reparations- choose your wording, but however
> you look at it, it
> is going to be crucial esp as we go (further)  over
> the curve into decent
> and decline. So much of PC is currently practiced, taught,
> organized etc
> within privilegded circles, and this is not just a 'moral'
> issue, but a deep
> ethical one as it challenges our ability to be effective in
> our goals.
> Fortunately lots of folks are conscious about this, and
> working on it.  I
> believe Rafter Sass may well be as influential in these
> areas of thinking
> for the young folks as some of the elder writers have been
> on other PC
> issues in the past.   http://www.liberationecology.org/
> 
> 3)  Questions about HOW we strategize, and organize
> etc.  I think this can
> be at least partially expressed in this -difference-
> between "radical" and
> "liberal" approaches to social change.  There has
> always been alot of
> expression of "liberal" beliefs in PC circles in the past -
> the belief that
> "aha moments" in individuals can be the drivers for social
> change and
> transformation, and that individual "change" is the key to
> our success.  I
> think in general most young people these days resonate more
> with "radical"
> solutions though.  That doesn't mean that radicals
> completely dismiss that
> individual changes occur, and that they aren't important,
> but the 'radicals'
> just feel that this type of change is simply not enough,
> and never will be,
> and that we have to approach/attack the systems that cause
> the problems, not
> just the individuals.*
> 
> Lierre Keith  is another thinker* that i believe has
> as much influence on
> young people as anyone in PC circles does, and she
> illustrates the
> difference between radical and liberal thinking very well:
> http://www.inthewake.org/keith1.html
> 
> Again, much respect and appreciation for everyone who has
> contributed to
> these discussions.  I must say they do not make me
> feel discouraged overall,
> but just the opposite!
> 
> One little thing- Cory's recent post below troubled me a
> bit. It was
> focussed on me, tho relates to others, so i want to respond
> real fast.
> Cory, this is another example of "dismissiveness", and a
> personal attack on
> me that i have no way of "defending" against.  I am
> not personally troubled
> by it, as I can speak (and be respected or not) for myself,
> and have
> confidence in my voice, experience, and analysis, but i
> fear that these
> types of examples of "attack", that do not even try to
> adress legitimate
> points/concerns, and only dismiss them by
> ridiculing/demeaning/disempowering
> the author, do not benefit anyone, and only support a
> pattern of heirarchy,
> privilege, power etc that isn't healthy.  I fully
> agree with you on the need
> for politeness, respect, and civilty, and if you have read
> any of my posts,
> you will see that i have tried my best! (in a very
> difficult context i might
> add) to embody these principles, while still remaining
> honest in my
> beliefs.  And one more thing- pls read Lierre Keith' s
> interview above.  You
> have been the most passionate, and strident (even
> militant!) "liberal" voice
> on this list, and it would probably behoove you to read
> some of what the
> 'kids' are reading if you want to influence them.
> 
> peace all,
> kevin
> 
> 
> re:
> 
> [permaculture] civility, respect and reputation
> 
> Cory Brennan cory8570 at yahoo.com
> Thu Sep 16 19:24:36 EDT 2010
> 
> I sincerely appreciate the respect that some cultures
> afford those who have
> life experience - those who have honed their skills for
> decades rather than
> months or years. In some cultures, these things are given
> real weight and
> value - young people understand that elders may actually
> know and see some
> things that they do not, and they approach those with more
> experience with
> respect and an open mind, believing that there are things
> they can learn
> from someone who has "been there, done that."
> 
> I have seen very little of that sort of awareness from a
> few of the young
> people on this list. The conversation started with a
> critique by you, Kevin,
> of a project you had few facts about and still haven't
> bothered to get.
> 
> There is nothing about how you have approached this subject
> that would
> indicate to me that you have any legitimate viewpoint that
> has been well
> thought out, based on "thoughtful and protracted
> observation" of what you
> are questioning. Why should Scott or anyone else give
> credence to your
> viewpoint when you don't even bother to find out the facts
> before forming
> one?
> 
> As someone who is somewhere in between youthful egoism and
> elder stature, I
> do appreciate what those with more experience have to say,
> and I do consider
> that just possibly, maybe, I do not know better than them,
> how to do what
> they have been doing for decades.
> 
> In some cases, I have seen that I could bring wisdom or
> insight to someone
> with more experience than I have had. But that is only
> after I have spent at
> least a bit of time observing and understanding
> 
> 1. what they actually did
> 2. why they did it
> 3. what the actual outcome was
> 
> Kevin, if you ever want to be taken seriously by those with
> more experience
> and know-how than you have, you may want to consider that
> you could learn
> something from that experience and know-how, and that it
> actually is worth
> something.
> 
> It takes some people a lifetime to discover that for
> themselves - only when
> they become an "elder" themselves do they realize the value
> of experience.
> And some people never figure it out because they don't tend
> to learn from
> their experience so it really doesn't ever come to have any
> real value to
> them.
> 
> Best, Cory
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