permaculture

[A Sampson-Kelly <april@permaculturevisions.com>]

I the early years of our project (let's say the first 10 years) I used 
to get offended and hurt that people would do all sorts of amazing 
copyright stuff,
they wouldn't even bother to copy and paste, they would put up a frame 
that was theirs and simply have my text inside their frame on stuff.
I started branding the text a bit with our logo and making sure there 
were hyperlinks to my site where relevant but at the end of day,
this is not going away, even people living in my home town have admitted 
to using my course notes and on-selling it as theirs, that's pretty raw!!

My partners and I have recognised that the only way on is up, I have to 
keep making sure that our course is current, better than the copies, and 
relevant.
Best of luck, I uphold copyright, I acknowledge the world is full of 
clever people and I cite them.
People can't keep expecting comment and writings for nothing - "a man is 
worth his salt"

April S-Kelly

Call 42285774
Fax +61 2 82087062 (from overseas) Fax 02 82087062 (within Australian)
Write: 280 Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526 Australia

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On 23/08/2010 3:25 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Re: WTF? (Killian O'Brien)
>     2. strategy for dealing with plagiarism (paul wheaton)
>     3. Svar:  strategy for dealing with plagiarism (Thomas Paul Jahn)
>     4. Re: WTF? (Lee Flier)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:19:53 -0400
> From: Killian O'Brien<admin@pri-de.org>
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] WTF?
> Message-ID:
>         
> <7E471FF35774474AA10A2EEEF1CAB26A0149FB14EB54@P1EC1EVS03.HMC1.COMCAST.NET>
>         
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Lee,
>
> This is basically an FYI comment, but I think if we are bothering to have 
> this conversation, we can't dismiss what is an important aspect of it, even 
> if not a central point of contention therein.
>
> Research, experience and history do show fairly large differences in 
> communicative styles which also translate over to problem solving. Of course, 
> these are generalizations, but they are real issues and the generalizations 
> apply to a large percentage of the population. Essentially, women problem 
> solve via relationships, men via practicalities.
>
> The results of female leadership because of this tend to create more 
> cooperative, more peaceful results... including societies. Like I said 
> before, I'd love to study with permaculturists such as Starhawk, but would 
> likely never teach in a similar style... though I might have 20 years ago.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Killian O'Brien
> PRI-De
> admin@pri-de.org
> (313) 647-4015
>
> killiankob@yahoo.com
> (760) 617-4693
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org 
> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lee Flier
> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:44 PM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] WTF?
>
>    Oh, I don't deny that.  I think what I'm saying is that I'm not sure
> how constructive it is to frame it in those terms.  In my own
> experience, this only seems to get people more entrenched rather than
> enlightened.  Most people are really loathe to be seen as un-masculine
> or un-feminine, so if you point to some study that shows there are
> differences, people will tend to cling to those behaviors as if doing
> otherwise would betray their gender.
>
> President Obama alluded to this same problem when he spoke about how
> many black kids in poor areas will put down a friend who reads books for
> "acting white."  I'm sure you could point to statistics that show fewer
> black kids than white kids read books regularly, but obviously,
> correlation doesn't equal causation, and this doesn't mean that reading
> books is or should be something that's associated with "being white."
> Likewise I think the implication that "women are better at communicating
> than men," among other things, is self perpetuating.
>
> On 8/20/2010 2:29 PM, LBUZZELL@aol.com wrote:
>    
> > Thanks, Lee.  There has been quite a bit of research on "average"
> > differences in conversation styles in women and men
> >      
> _______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:56:30 -0600
> From: paul wheaton<paul@richsoil.com>
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: [permaculture] strategy for dealing with plagiarism
> Message-ID:
>         <AANLkTimJzpM0jVc8bmJj2KD+uv4X29XNA7ci=9WkaDrw@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Every few months I get obsessed on some topic and write an article -
> and I usually spend about 40 hours over the following month polishing
> it to make it just right.  And then I find it copied and pasted
> somewhere without any credit to me.   This has been happening more and
> more.  Today's examples is this article on soil ph (
> http://www.richsoil.com/ph/ ) which has been copied here (
> http://www.reelyard.com/?p=11 ).
>
> In the dozens of times in the past when I contact folks that do this,
> I try to convince them to change it to "here is an article I like" -
> maybe have a paragraph and then a link to my article.  Instead, about
> half the time I get some bullshit about how they wrote it first.  So
> then I go to the wayback machine and prove I wrote it first.  Then
> they say that there is no such thing as copyright on the internet.
> They are nearly always livid pissed that I could be such an asshole
> about it.  Well ... it just ends up a big hassle.  In the end, they
> usually delete it and I feel like crap for having hassled them.
>
> So I already have a way of confronting them that turns into a big shit
> storm and ends up with them sending me all sorts of nasty and after
> all sorts of pain, they finally delete it.
>
> I want to find an approach so that the response is "sorry about that -
> let me make it right by making a link to you and telling folks your
> stuff is good!"
>
> So I'm fishing for suggestions.  Any ideas on how to approach these
> most recent offenders?
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 00:04:01 +0200
> From: "Thomas Paul Jahn"<tpj@life.ku.dk>
> To:<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: [permaculture] Svar:  strategy for dealing with plagiarism
> Message-ID:<4C7069710200006600024685@gwia2.kvl.dk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Paul! Instead of the usual reference list (or rather: in addition to) you may 
> want to consider a list list:
> "has been cited at..." or "simply copied from...".
> I think the 'way back machine' is a good idea and you have the proof on hand.
> This way, at least the people that come to your page will be aware of the 
> impact of your work.
> In any case: I appreciate your work and spirit.
> So please carry on
> Thomas
>
>    
> > > > paul wheaton  21-08-10 22:57>>>
> > > >          
> Every few months I get obsessed on some topic and write an article -
> and I usually spend about 40 hours over the following month polishing
> it to make it just right.  And then I find it copied and pasted
> somewhere without any credit to me.   This has been happening more and
> more.  Today's examples is this article on soil ph (
> http://www.richsoil.com/ph/ ) which has been copied here (
> http://www.reelyard.com/?p=11 ).
>
> In the dozens of times in the past when I contact folks that do this,
> I try to convince them to change it to "here is an article I like" -
> maybe have a paragraph and then a link to my article.  Instead, about
> half the time I get some bullshit about how they wrote it first.  So
> then I go to the wayback machine and prove I wrote it first.  Then
> they say that there is no such thing as copyright on the internet.
> They are nearly always livid pissed that I could be such an asshole
> about it.  Well ... it just ends up a big hassle.  In the end, they
> usually delete it and I feel like crap for having hassled them.
>
> So I already have a way of confronting them that turns into a big shit
> storm and ends up with them sending me all sorts of nasty and after
> all sorts of pain, they finally delete it.
>
> I want to find an approach so that the response is "sorry about that -
> let me make it right by making a link to you and telling folks your
> stuff is good!"
>
> So I'm fishing for suggestions.  Any ideas on how to approach these
> most recent offenders?
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Google command to search archives:
> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 10:58:22 -0400
> From: Lee Flier<leeflier@comcast.net>
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] WTF?
> Message-ID:<4C713B0E.6040709@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>    Like I said, I don't deny the research, but I just don't know that
> it's constructive to frame communications problems in those terms.  I
> think it's enough to simply say that there are different styles of
> communication (which are affected by a lot of factors including gender,
> culture, language, and individual upbringing) and it's probably
> constructive for everyone to work on their communication skills,
> especially in today's globalized culture.
>
> I also don't necessarily agree that female leadership tends toward more
> cooperative or peaceful results.  We haven't had too many women in power
> throughout history to use as examples, but those we have had haven't
> necessarily been shining examples - Margaret Thatcher and Marie
> Antoinette come to mind. :D  Women are just as susceptible as men to
> being corrupted by power.
>
> I realize there are some generalities that hold true in a lot of cases,
> but since I've personally been victimized by generalizations far more
> often than I've been helped (and know many others in the same boat), I
> tend to poke holes in them much more often than accept them.
>
> On 8/21/2010 3:19 PM, Killian O'Brien wrote:
>    
> > Lee,
> >
> > This is basically an FYI comment, but I think if we are bothering to have 
> > this conversation, we can't dismiss what is an important aspect of it, even 
> > if not a central point of contention therein.
> >
> > Research, experience and history do show fairly large differences in 
> > communicative styles which also translate over to problem solving. Of course, 
> > these are generalizations, but they are real issues and the generalizations 
> > apply to a large percentage of the population. Essentially, women problem 
> > solve via relationships, men via practicalities.
> >
> > The results of female leadership because of this tend to create more 
> > cooperative, more peaceful results... including societies. Like I said 
> > before, I'd love to study with permaculturists such as Starhawk, but would 
> > likely never teach in a similar style... though I might have 20 years ago.
> >      
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 44
> ********************************************
>
>