permaculture

[Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>]

Kevin--

Why would you be surprised that another human being has biases? Of course I 
do. I don't pretend to speak for, or to, the whole world. I speak from my own 
limited experience. And I find these conversations where we're talking past 
each other tiresome. A conversation requires a genuine effort to comprehend 
the other.

Since you're a smart guy, I can only think that your missing my point is 
deliberate, for whatever reason. I hope this is clearer: Step outside your 
door, wherever you are, and start asking people if on ethical grounds they 
would refuse to work with someone in the armed forces. Start reciting to your 
neighbors Patrick's or Nicholas's litany of the crimes committed by the US, 
or Britain, or whatever imperialist country you live in. See how much 
sympathy you get; how soon the first door is slammed. Or are you really 
unaware of what a tiny minority we--most of those on this list--are, 
politically, in comparison to the people we are surrounded by? I'm from a 
city that voted 81% for Obama, but most of my neighbors are far to the right 
of me and would quickly slam their doors. I 'm not under the illusion that 
the whole world, or even my neighbor, thinks like I do. If a majority of our 
compatriots really hated corporatism, there would be far less of it. That's 
why I think permaculture, if we teach it as a political movement, has gone 
and will go pretty much nowhere. Presenting permaculture through a 
radical-left bias is a completely pattern-illiterate approach. I object to it 
on the same grounds that I object to making students hold hands and sing 
about Earth devas. It won't make anyone a better designer, and it will 
alienate anyone not in the choir. The material is transformative in itself; 
we don't need to treat people like they are lost sheep in need of saving.

For every successful movement, there are a thousand failed and forgotten 
ones. I don't like those odds, and think there are smarter ways to present 
permaculture to people.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com



On Aug 19, 2010, at 1:58 PM, kevin skvorak wrote:

> Me too Toby,
> 
> I must say i emphatically disagree here as well (and am myself surprised at
> the bias that seems to still peek thru even in your explanation):
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 9:39 PM, Smith Mill Creek
> <smithmillcreek@gmail.com>wrote:
> 
>> Hi Toby-
>> I think I disagree on a number of points (which surprises me).
>> 
>>> 
>>> From: Toby Hemenway<toby@patternliteracy.com>
>>>  "If we look at permaculture as a movement, it's in the quite left-wing,
>>> Earth-worshipping, hippie-descended, middle and upper middle class, etc,
>>> etc, region, with a modest number of outliers included. A narrow slice. 
>>> Who
>>> else would even be arguing about working with the army?
>>> 
>> 
> Toby c'mon now- you are honestly asking: " who else would be arguing about
> working with the US military?"
> 
> you really want anyone to answer that for you?  how about relatives of the
> millions & millions, literally, of folks killed by US forces in the last
> 40yrs.  Few of them hippies, i imagine.
> 
> i mean, cmon now....
> 
> best,
> kevin
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