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  • From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking (was Designing a, Movement)
  • Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:21:10 -0700

Okay. And we do disagree. I thought we'd settled that one long ago; not sure
what's being reframed, but this does seem to be going round and round the
same stuff now. And when a thread gets side comments about who is interested
or not, or what the languaging is, you know it's about spent or needs a
significant shift.

I can't make the distinction between teaching for institutions or individuals
that you and others can. I cannot think of an individual or institution that
I would refuse to teach a PDC to, with the exception of straight out hate
groups, which the army is emphatically not. Overall, I don' t think a
corporation or military can be made any worse for learning permaculture, and
I think I personally am engaging in Earth and people care when I teach them,
even if their own mission isn't. Institutions like corporations are way ahead
of us in thinking up clever ways to screw up the world; we won't make them
better at that. But by being exposed to the ecological and ethical basis of
permaculture, individuals in the organization will be transformed, and
perhaps even the organization itself. I've seen it happen. One at a time;
that's how I do it. If that's outside your ethical framework; so be it.

In contrast, there are a lot of people and groups I wouldn't do design work
for. When I teach, teaching is done my way and the students arrive at goals
set by me (to over-simplify grossly). When I do design work, I work for the
client; my skills are being used to execute their goals. So I do think that
we can get into ethical messes if we don't choose our clients carefully, but
much less so our students.

Re my remark, "who else would be arguing about working with the army," I
think you underestimate the compassion and tolerance that many people have
for those who have harmed them. My friends who are vets speak of how well
they are treated when they return to the countries where they killed people.
If you asked those relatives of millions of dead if they would want the
attacking army to be taught a system grounded in ethics and ecological
wisdom, I bet many would say yes.

We do agree on much. I am glad that you (Kevin) started this thread. It's
helped me clarify my dislike of the idea of permaculture as a movement,
something I hadn't articulated. And it's helped me grasp that I would teach
almost anyone, but wouldn't do design work for everyone.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com



On Aug 20, 2010, at 8:25 AM, kevin skvorak wrote:

> Toby,
>
> please let me try one more time! (this is getting a bit more difficult than
> i had imagined!)
>
> I (almost) completely agree with you! and we are precisely engaged in a
> good example of talking past each other here.
>
> I do not (and never have in these posts) believe it is a good ethical
> decision to " refuse to work with -someone- in the armed forces."
>
> i would never refuse to work with - someone- in the military.
>
> but that has always been my point! we are not talking about individuals
> here. we are talking about working with institutions, and the specific
> risks that come with working with the institution of the US military. (some
> of those risks have already been articulated, and there are MANY risks)
>
> our mission, should we chose to accept it! would be to analyze the risks vs
> benefits in terms of systems - not in terms of individuals
>
> so please toby, and all the people taking the same line. it is ok w/me if
> you all disagree with me, but at least stop reframing the "debate" every
> post! ok! many thanks!
>
> here is perhaps a somewhat useful examination of liberalism vs radicalism.
> i don't wholeheartedly endorse it, and personally simultaneously hold
> political views that are liberal and radical, but it hopefully offers some
> more insight into what i think is going on in these discussions (thanks
> andrew h)
>
> from:
> http://www.inthewake.org/keith1.html
>
> "I think it's crucial to understand what differentiates liberalism from
> radicalism. I think we can avoid a lot of useless discussions and group
> traumas by understanding the underlying philosophical currents in various
> approaches to social change. One cardinal difference is idealism vs
> materialism. Liberalism is idealist; the crucible of social reality is
> placed in the realm of ideas, in concepts, language, attitudes. And
> liberalism is individualist. The basic social unit is the individual.
>
>
> In contrast, radicalism is materialist. Radicals see society as composed of
> actual institutions--economic, political, cultural--which wield power,
> including the power to use violence. The basic social unit is a class or
> group, whether that's racial class, sex caste, economic class, or other
> grouping. Radicalism understands oppression as group-based harm.
>
>
> So for liberals, defining people as members of a group is the harm. Whereas
> for radicals, identifying your interests with others who are dispossessed,
> developing loyalty to your people, is the first, crucial step in building a
> liberation movement. Liberals essentially think that oppression is a
> mistake, a misunderstanding, and changing people's minds is the way to
> change the world. That's where you get this tremendous emphasis on education
> as a political strategy. So for instance, instead of identifying the
> institutions that destroy communities of color and strategizing how to
> dismantle them, we're supposed to go to Unlearning Racism workshops and
> confess to being racists. Please don't misunderstand, this is not an excuse
> to avoid examining whatever privilege we have. And if we've behaved
> dishonorably, we need to make amends. My point is that however important
> personal accountability is, it's not political action."
>
> peace,
> kevin
>
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 4:46 AM, Toby Hemenway
> <toby@patternliteracy.com>wrote:
>
>> Kevin--
>>
>> Why would you be surprised that another human being has biases? Of course I
>> do. I don't pretend to speak for, or to, the whole world. I speak from my
>> own limited experience. And I find these conversations where we're talking
>> past each other tiresome. A conversation requires a genuine effort to
>> comprehend the other.
>>
>> Since you're a smart guy, I can only think that your missing my point is
>> deliberate, for whatever reason. I hope this is clearer: Step outside your
>> door, wherever you are, and start asking people if on ethical grounds they
>> would refuse to work with someone in the armed forces. Start reciting to
>> your neighbors Patrick's or Nicholas's litany of the crimes committed by
>> the
>> US, or Britain, or whatever imperialist country you live in. See how much
>> sympathy you get; how soon the first door is slammed. Or are you really
>> unaware of what a tiny minority we--most of those on this list--are,
>> politically, in comparison to the people we are surrounded by? I'm from a
>> city that voted 81% for Obama, but most of my neighbors are far to the
>> right
>> of me and would quickly slam their doors. I 'm not under the illusion that
>> the whole world, or even my neighbor, thinks like I do. If a majority of
>> our
>> compatriots really hated corporatism, there would be far less of it. That's
>> why I think permacultur
>> e, if we teach it as a political movement, has gone and will go pretty
>> much nowhere. Presenting permaculture through a radical-left bias is a
>> completely pattern-illiterate approach. I object to it on the same grounds
>> that I object to making students hold hands and sing about Earth devas. It
>> won't make anyone a better designer, and it will alienate anyone not in the
>> choir. The material is transformative in itself; we don't need to treat
>> people like they are lost sheep in need of saving.
>>
>> For every successful movement, there are a thousand failed and forgotten
>> ones. I don't like those odds, and think there are smarter ways to present
>> permaculture to people.
>>
>> Toby
>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 1:58 PM, kevin skvorak wrote:
>>
>>> Me too Toby,
>>>
>>> I must say i emphatically disagree here as well (and am myself surprised
>> at
>>> the bias that seems to still peek thru even in your explanation):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 9:39 PM, Smith Mill Creek
>>> <smithmillcreek@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Toby-
>>>> I think I disagree on a number of points (which surprises me).
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Toby Hemenway<toby@patternliteracy.com>
>>>>> "If we look at permaculture as a movement, it's in the quite
>> left-wing,
>>>>> Earth-worshipping, hippie-descended, middle and upper middle class,
>> etc,
>>>>> etc, region, with a modest number of outliers included. A narrow slice.
>> Who
>>>>> else would even be arguing about working with the army?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> Toby c'mon now- you are honestly asking: " who else would be arguing
>> about
>>> working with the US military?"
>>>
>>> you really want anyone to answer that for you? how about relatives of
>> the
>>> millions & millions, literally, of folks killed by US forces in the last
>>> 40yrs. Few of them hippies, i imagine.
>>>
>>> i mean, cmon now....
>>>
>>> best,
>>> kevin
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>>
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