permaculture

[Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>]

Ben Martin Horst wrote:
 
>I had read all the permaculture literature then available, subscribed to 
>this and other
lists, etc, but nothing made permaculture "click" as a comprehensive systems
practice and pedagogy the way that PDC did.
 
So what if it already "clicked?"  If it clicked any more than it already has, 
I'd be a different species.  And I wouldn't look sideways at that already 
being the case...
 
Some really freaky interesting things have happened to me in the last year 
since I discovered permaculture.  I'd be glad to chat with anyone off-list 
about stuff like that if they're interested, but I'll leave it there for now.
 
Look, I'm not asking for an exception to the rule.  I'd love to take a good 
PDC, and have in fact been chatting off-list with my bioregional neighbor, 
Michael Pilarski,  about getting that done.  But it just hasn't worked out 
yet.  And I'll be honest, the money is a big deal.  Hence the "smoldering 
embers of a dying economy" image in my original post.  But the idea that I 
don't "get" permaculture, in all its parts, because of that one void, is 
argumentative at best.  No disrespect to Toby.
 
Thanks Mitch, for relating that PDC horror story.  Puffy paint and sparkles.  
Although I think I can safely assume that if that were the norm none of us 
would be having this discussion...
 
Tripp out.



The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Fri, 12/11/09, Ben Martin Horst <ben.martinhorst@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Ben Martin Horst <ben.martinhorst@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Thoughts on PDCs - Was US National Permaculture 
Conference (lengthy post)
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 9:54 PM


Lest those who haven't done a PDC be frightened by Mitch's description of
his, I'd like to mention that I cannot speak praise enough for the teachers
of the one I took (Jude Hobbs, Toby Hemenway, and Tom Ward). I had read all
the permaculture literature then available, subscribed to this and other
lists, etc, but nothing made permaculture "click" as a comprehensive systems
practice and pedagogy the way that PDC did. Frankly, my only problem with
the course was that so much was packed into 72ish hours ... I easily learned
more in that one course than I did in four years of college, and I'd love to
have had more of a chance to explore some of the topics more fully with the
instructors and fellow students. Having lurked on this list for several
years, I've seen people's bad experiences with PDCs or poor instructors do
come up occasionally, but I'm convinced that this is the exception rather
than the norm.

If the "permaculture movement," for lack of a better term, was more
centralized, we'd likely have more obvious ways of dealing with poor
instructors, though I'd never advocate for that. Mollison and Tagari have
tried to keep some control over pedagogy and qualifications, but it would
surprise me if even a majority of the permaculture instructors in the US
were Tagari-certified, and, frankly, I wouldn't necessarily trust that to
make a whole lot of difference. Essentially what we've been left with is
word of mouth: "My instructor was great!" or "That PDC was a huge waste of
money." It would be interesting to think about how, as a community dedicated
to permaculture, we can better ensure that the most people possible get the
most value from their PDC.

As a brainstormed example, in the Pacific Northwest / Cascadia (where I
live) I could envision a regional permaculture body that would evaluate the
credentials of instructors practicing in the region. One requirement might
be that new instructors apprentice to a seasoned, respected instructor for
the duration of one or two 72-hour courses before being "accredited." Of
course, at this point at least, there would be nothing legally significant
about such accreditation, but if implemented effectively, prospective
students might look for "Cascadia Permaculture Guild Certified" on an
instructor's curriculum vitae. Such regional bodies, ideally with similar
certification criteria, could exist throughout the world. One side benefit
of such regional certification bodies might be that it would be more likely
for students and instructors to belong to the same bioregion, and the 72
hours of standard PDC could be supplemented with learning on strategies
specific to a given climate and region (as some already are, of course).
These thoughts are just off the top of my head, and I'm sure actual
instructors and folks more involved on regional levels would have better,
more realistic ideas.

-Ben
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring






>From venaurafarm@bellsouth.net  Fri Dec 11 18:54:41 2009
Return-Path: <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id 5A12B4C015; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:54:41 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=UNPARSEABLE_RELAY
        autolearn=disabled version=3.2.3
Received: from smtp115.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com (smtp115.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com
        [66.196.96.88])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D7AD34C00D
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:54:28 -0500 (EST)
Received: (qmail 1815 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2009 23:54:23 -0000
Received: from adsl-065-005-197-216.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net
        (venaurafarm@65.5.197.216 with plain)
        by smtp115.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP;
        11 Dec 2009 15:54:22 -0800 PST
X-Yahoo-SMTP: c5cR1iqswBAL69WHluJFuhWbBKf0NOdLgGLeT6yCzJZKlgZ.16E-
X-YMail-OSG: 
R8cd5kIVM1kmSeitRvYUAoV9ydd6G4AyE6PaBgQ9aVi947oZRea620FNXtimZ.E5Hpj4Xbu4caQ7E_6nvnVOETuyl.wBLIvAz8Zv_nEh3.sHLdL.fAylszk7ZLIlk_mF6Jn4GH5UNFKkI5m6UN6InDQWMMbpn2fNvsZzEysdD7j_HuL6uxtAIKL2Hc.5QMonaBogdoCIOgYgvvvcinKPwldqvRRY5VOYy42p7zUPWec..BQAj2ecV1YoHZl1kfn8LEoV8kFcrA2QCqaFeQJHBIklSP8IUMrKwjT7Ty3ps47_zAOcRJPUxE1YRWBDd048_0SjzPRwBPgyqEiERxRGWOqFZjYhsfl.ecinvyvqZ_dAYy4M7mYSRfRQ61_ybGfoHN5BaOMObpIyjaF4CUAb4KahPMFgyaan32W7gKeNceKy5Y0e_.UylsFlhJwVrIvFFi.ACG7QTVZ_u5iIvp49v5eMNhX2w7L8qLSf
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
Message-ID: <4B22DBAA.1060701@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:54:18 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
References: <963188.52980.qm@web57614.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <963188.52980.qm@web57614.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Tragedy of the Himalayas By BRYAN
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 23:54:41 -0000

Patrick wrote:
> http://www.newleftreview.org/?view'88
> THE GREAT HIMALAYAN WATERSHED Agrarian Crisis, Mega-Dams and the Environment

- a reason the chinese were so interested in Tibet, a new hydroelectric
power plant at a dam on a Tibetan river to be twice the capacity of the
3 gorges project...

New Left Review - Kenneth Pomeranz: The Great Himalayan Watershed
http://www.newleftreview.org/?view'88
"Last but not least, the large and sometimes unpredictable fluctuations
in water volumes far upstream mean that the turbines will not always be
fully utilized, so that the actual amount of power generated may be much
less impressive than the enormous figures for ‘installed capacity’
listed for these projects; uncertainties which holders of development
rights seeking either investment partners or permission to build have no
incentive to highlight. [26] This does not mean, of course, that
dams—including large ones—may not make economic and even environmental
sense in some cases, given China’s limited options. It does mean,
however, that in a number of instances dams are almost certainly being
built for political motives, or as a result of profit-seeking by those
with government connections, where even a narrowly economic analysis
would not justify them.

Even the water-engineering projects that will genuinely help millions in
northern and eastern China—and perhaps others, if they serve to curb the
country’s carbon emissions and future food imports—have serious
implications for people who live in the regions where they will be
built. Tibetans and other ethnic minorities in the far southwest are
likely to be the most affected. In May 2009, an unconfirmed report by
the Tibetan government-in-exile stated that at least six Tibetan women
were injured when security forces opened fire on them as they protested
against a hydro project on the Tibet–Sichuan border. [27] One issue here
is that of human tampering with lakes and rivers that Tibetans hold
sacred, such as the large dam at Yamdrok Tso. [28] A massive dam—40,000
megawatts, or almost twice the capacity of Three Gorges—proposed at the
great bend in the Yalong Zangbo would again wreak a dramatic
transformation on a holy site, in order to create power and water
supplies that would mostly go to far-away Han Chinese."