permaculture

[Keith Morris <earthsurfing@yahoo.com>]

John,
You should contact Mark Krawczyk of Keyline Vermont:
http://www.keylinevermont.com/

Keyline plow lines are primarily intended to deepen top soil and humidify dry 
ridges...  They do not 'stay' as a permanent earthwork like a swale would.
Best,Keith
From: John Fritz <johnfritz77@yahoo.com>

As a practical, economic matter, it seems that, for me, incorporating swales 
on contour makes more sense than to buy a 60 h.p. tractor and keyline plow, 
or hire someone who has these implements and is adept at using them.? The 
only unknown variable is the efficacy of keyline landscaping, as a whole 
system,vs. swale earthworks on contour as a stand alone strategy.? What would 
I be losing if I just used swales to retain water in my soil, as opposed to 
the time and expense of having a complete keyline design adapted to my 
rolling land??? In particular I am thinking about the timeline of energy 
descent and the availability of a professional keyline design several years 
out (five, maybe more years) as opposed to obtaining the best swales that I 
can now afford, even if the contour lines are less than perfectly plotted.? 
One other doubt that I have is the resiliance (sp?) of the plowing done by a 
keyline chisel plow.? I have never seen either a freshly
completed keyline design,?nor such a design after several years completion.? 
One thing that is not clear to me is how the chisel plow lines hold up to the 
natural erosion that would seem to occur over time.? Swales seem to have more 
resiliancy as they are?made on gradual sweeping lines that have vegetative 
protection, whereas keyline chisel plow lines appear to be?akin to defiles in 
the soil and more prone to collapse due to erosion over time...with a 
resulting need to replow the?contour lines.? Any corrections to my intuition 
are welcomed.
?
John Fritz, NW Arkansas.

Keith Morris  Prospect Rock Permaculture
Design and Education for Ecological Culture
  earthsurfing@yahoo.com  (802) 734.1129  PO Box 426   Jeffersonville, VT 
05464
  
  "If we do not do the impossible, we shall be faced with the unthinkable."  
-Murray Bookchin (1921-2006)

--- On Mon, 8/31/09, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org 
<permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org 
<permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 79, Issue 33
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 1:21 PM

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: yet another rocket stove construction picture set (Jeff)
   2. swales vs. complete keyline design? (John Fritz)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 16:35:14 -0600
From: Jeff <toobeeorknottoobee@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] yet another rocket stove construction
    picture set
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4A9AFEA2.6090105@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Very nice, thanks for sharing! Did you include a clean out on the burn 
chamber or do you just reach from the feed tube to clean out? I have not 
built one, but I'm itching. -Jeff

negiliblek wrote:
> Built this one in NM to heat a shower floor (and perhaps the water too)... 
>
> ...it was my first large rocket stove!
>
> http://twobirdstone.blogspot.com/
>
> Since these pictures were taken, I've finished the hot water circuit too. 
> I'll post 'em later if I can get to Internet access
>
>
>
>       
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Google command to search archives:
> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>
>
>
>   


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 09:28:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Fritz <johnfritz77@yahoo.com>
Subject: [permaculture] swales vs. complete keyline design?
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <121902.78594.qm@web43136.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


?
As a practical, economic matter, it seems that, for me, incorporating swales 
on contour makes more sense than to buy a 60 h.p. tractor and keyline plow, 
or hire someone who has these implements and is adept at using them.? The 
only unknown variable is the efficacy of keyline landscaping, as a whole 
system,vs. swale earthworks on contour as a stand alone strategy.? What would 
I be losing if I just used swales to retain water in my soil, as opposed to 
the time and expense of having a complete keyline design adapted to my 
rolling land??? In particular I am thinking about the timeline of energy 
descent and the availability of a professional keyline design several years 
out (five, maybe more years) as opposed to obtaining the best swales that I 
can now afford, even if the contour lines are less than perfectly plotted.? 
One other doubt that I have is the resiliance (sp?) of the plowing done by a 
keyline chisel plow.? I have never seen either a freshly
 completed keyline design,?nor such a design after several years completion.? 
One thing that is not clear to me is how the chisel plow lines hold up to the 
natural erosion that would seem to occur over time.? Swales seem to have more 
resiliancy as they are?made on gradual sweeping lines that have vegetative 
protection, whereas keyline chisel plow lines appear to be?akin to defiles in 
the soil and more prone to collapse due to erosion over time...with a 
resulting need to replow the?contour lines.? Any corrections to my intuition 
are welcomed.
?
John Fritz, NW Arkansas.


      

------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 79, Issue 33
********************************************




>From gavinraders@gmail.com  Mon Aug 31 22:05:05 2009
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hey there,
    It totally depends on what you'd like to grow and how you'd like to use
the land.  As I learned from Geoff Lawton, you always want to plant trees
downslope from your swales, so digging swales is appropriate for perennial
food forests and intercropped fruit/nut orchards.  The swales deliver slow,
spread, and sink the runoff into the soil, delivering water directly to the
roots of downslope trees.  In essence, you are creating a mini-aquifer
directly where you the trees need it.  Check out Geoff's videos on the
subject, via his website or youtube.
   Using a keyline plow, as I understand from an awesome Darren Dougherty
workshop, is great for an integrated grassland/livestock system.  By opening
up space for air, water, and roots to get down into heavily compacted soils,
you can very quickly add the biomass necessary to create topsoil, fast.
Gravity powered flood irrigation is often used in this system, a la P.A.
Yeomans.  Check out the Carbon Farmers of America to see how this sort of
system can be used to build topsoil, sequester carbon, and feed livestock
efficiently and sustainably.  Like Keith alluded to, you may only need to
use the keyline plow once, to get going.
hope this helps.
gavin raders
www.plantingjustice.org

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Keith Morris <earthsurfing@yahoo.com>wrote:

> John,
> You should contact Mark Krawczyk of Keyline Vermont:
> http://www.keylinevermont.com/
>
> Keyline plow lines are primarily intended to deepen top soil and humidify
> dry ridges...  They do not 'stay' as a permanent earthwork like a swale
> would.
> Best,Keith
> From: John Fritz <johnfritz77@yahoo.com>
>
> As a practical, economic matter, it seems that, for me, incorporating
> swales on contour makes more sense than to buy a 60 h.p. tractor and keyline
> plow, or hire someone who has these implements and is adept at using them.?
> The only unknown variable is the efficacy of keyline landscaping, as a whole
> system,vs. swale earthworks on contour as a stand alone strategy.? What
> would I be losing if I just used swales to retain water in my soil, as
> opposed to the time and expense of having a complete keyline design adapted
> to my rolling land??? In particular I am thinking about the timeline of
> energy descent and the availability of a professional keyline design several
> years out (five, maybe more years) as opposed to obtaining the best swales
> that I can now afford, even if the contour lines are less than perfectly
> plotted.? One other doubt that I have is the resiliance (sp?) of the plowing
> done by a keyline chisel plow.? I have never seen either a freshly
> completed keyline design,?nor such a design after several years
> completion.? One thing that is not clear to me is how the chisel plow lines
> hold up to the natural erosion that would seem to occur over time.? Swales
> seem to have more resiliancy as they are?made on gradual sweeping lines that
> have vegetative protection, whereas keyline chisel plow lines appear to
> be?akin to defiles in the soil and more prone to collapse due to erosion
> over time...with a resulting need to replow the?contour lines.? Any
> corrections to my intuition are welcomed.
> ?
> John Fritz, NW Arkansas.
>
> Keith Morris  Prospect Rock Permaculture
> Design and Education for Ecological Culture
>  earthsurfing@yahoo.com  (802) 734.1129  PO Box 426   Jeffersonville, VT
> 05464
>
>  "If we do not do the impossible, we shall be faced with the unthinkable."
>  -Murray Bookchin (1921-2006)
>
> --- On Mon, 8/31/09, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org <
> permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>
> From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org <
> permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 79, Issue 33
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 1:21 PM
>
> Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
>     permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>     permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: yet another rocket stove construction picture set (Jeff)
>    2. swales vs. complete keyline design? (John Fritz)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 16:35:14 -0600
> From: Jeff <toobeeorknottoobee@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] yet another rocket stove construction
>     picture set
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4A9AFEA2.6090105@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Very nice, thanks for sharing! Did you include a clean out on the burn
> chamber or do you just reach from the feed tube to clean out? I have not
> built one, but I'm itching. -Jeff
>
> negiliblek wrote:
> > Built this one in NM to heat a shower floor (and perhaps the water
> too)...
> >
> > ...it was my first large rocket stove!
> >
> > http://twobirdstone.blogspot.com/
> >
> > Since these pictures were taken, I've finished the hot water circuit too.
> I'll post 'em later if I can get to Internet access
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Google command to search archives:
> > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 09:28:01 -0700 (PDT)
> From: John Fritz <johnfritz77@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] swales vs. complete keyline design?
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <121902.78594.qm@web43136.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> ?
> As a practical, economic matter, it seems that, for me, incorporating
> swales on contour makes more sense than to buy a 60 h.p. tractor and keyline
> plow, or hire someone who has these implements and is adept at using them.?
> The only unknown variable is the efficacy of keyline landscaping, as a whole
> system,vs. swale earthworks on contour as a stand alone strategy.? What
> would I be losing if I just used swales to retain water in my soil, as
> opposed to the time and expense of having a complete keyline design adapted
> to my rolling land??? In particular I am thinking about the timeline of
> energy descent and the availability of a professional keyline design several
> years out (five, maybe more years) as opposed to obtaining the best swales
> that I can now afford, even if the contour lines are less than perfectly
> plotted.? One other doubt that I have is the resiliance (sp?) of the plowing
> done by a keyline chisel plow.? I have never seen either a freshly
>  completed keyline design,?nor such a design after several years
> completion.? One thing that is not clear to me is how the chisel plow lines
> hold up to the natural erosion that would seem to occur over time.? Swales
> seem to have more resiliancy as they are?made on gradual sweeping lines that
> have vegetative protection, whereas keyline chisel plow lines appear to
> be?akin to defiles in the soil and more prone to collapse due to erosion
> over time...with a resulting need to replow the?contour lines.? Any
> corrections to my intuition are welcomed.
> ?
> John Fritz, NW Arkansas.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 79, Issue 33
> ********************************************
>
>
>
>
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