permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: permaculture
List archive
- From: "Steve Read" <steveread@free.fr>
- To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: [permaculture] private property and forests
- Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:28:27 +0100
Hello, Dieter Brand,
"f you are serious about your ideas, I suggest you put hand to shovel and try
to make a living out of a piece of land"
I would politely suggest that you be a lot more careful with your tone, I
would also suggest that you don't make unfounded assumptions about what I do
and where I come from, if you can't
be bothered either to backtrack a thread then I wouldn't bother if I were you
to make a contribution. The Soviet Union and its failures and brutalities has
nothing to do with this discusssion.
You are completely correct I feel however when you say "I'm a little out of
touch with things".
I'm off now to do some planting and to check on the area of buckwheat that
seems to need some help.
SteveR
======= At 2008-11-10, 13:09:07 you wrote: =======
>> ...The point I would like for a final time to re-iterate is that
>> private property gives the owner(s) the right (constrained
>> only by variable Govt and local laws) to do with it as they
>> like, in perpetuity and their children etc etc.
>>
>> Over and out
>
>SteveR,
>
>Nothing is really over and out until it is really over and out. Regarding
>the "perpetuity" of landownership in the UK, isn't there also the little
>detail of inheritance tax that has effectively dissolved many of the old
>estates?
>
>I haven't been able to follow this thread from the beginning, but I'm
>generally of the opinion that sustainable use of land requires private
>ownership or at least a system of tenure that enables a farmer to plan for
>the long term.
>
>Anyways, landowners are far from "free to do" with their land as they like,
>apart from the local and Gov. laws you mentioned, there are also economic
>factors and, in Europe, the EU agricultural policy that determine everything
>a farmer can and cannot do.
>
>Whatever evils of private ownership you can make out, surely that is nothing
>in comparison to the gigantic waste engendered by the collective ownership
>of the Soviet Union. I'm a little out of touch with things, but if the
>Hampstead Heath crowd is once again getting all befuddled with socialist
>revolution, there are still enough survivors of the Gulag of "real"
>socialism that are none to keen on repeating the experience.
>
>The trouble I see is that many of the laws governing the land are made in
>the cities, while the rural population has little say in the way things are
>done. Here in Portugal were I live; many farmers have given up due to
>economic conditions. To make things worse, new laws (most of which are due
>to EU regulations) are putting on the screws even further. The result is
>that farmers are still leaving the land. In this dry climate, the abandoned
>land like the protected areas created EU-wide to protect nature will burn
>down in regular intervals, thus devastating whole regions.
>
>Most farmers are unlikely to be enthusiastic about some day dream of
>collective ownership imposed on them by people from the cities. If you are
>serious about your ideas, I suggest you put hand to shovel and try to make a
>living out of a piece of land. You could even join some commune if you are
>able to stomach the internal political infighting these things often bring
>about.
>
>Dieter Brand
>Portugal
>
>--- On Mon, 11/10/08, Steve Read <steveread@free.fr> wrote:
>
>From: Steve Read <steveread@free.fr>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] private property and forests
>To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 7:26 AM
>
>Hello, Rain Tenaqiya,
>
>All over Britain thousands of acres of land held by schools has been was sold
>off, particularly during the Thatcher regime as schools made a quick pound
>out
>of the booming housing development. That an analyst writes a book, that
>someone
>reads it, and its got an ISBN number doesn't necessarily make the proposals
>in it astute. Pension schemes can be as ill-judges in their practices as
>anyone
>else. The point I would like for a final time to re-iterate is that private
>property gives the owner(s) the right (constrained only by variable Govt and
>local laws) to do with it as they like, in perpetuity and their children etc
>etc.
>
>
>Over and out
>
>
>SteveR
>
>======= At 2008-11-08, 20:26:26 you wrote: =======
>
>>I'm reading a book called More Tree Talk by Ray Raphael, a local
>(northern California) historian. He explains how property owned by logging
>corporations is logged at a faster than sustainable rate in order to produce
>a
>profit in a capitalist society with high interest rates and multiple
>investment
>options for capital. He proposes that a better solution would be to have
>forest land owned by schools, retirement funds, and other groups who have
>less
>pressure to make a quick profit, but who are interested in making money over
>a
>longer time period.
>>
>>Nothing is perfect, but using broad labels like "private
>property" isn't good for making sustainable designs. Again, we have
>to look at what our design goals are and do a needs and yields assessment for
>our different options. Getting really specific about the different elements
>and sites in our designs will help us come up with better results.
>>
>>Rain
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>permaculture mailing list
>>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>Google command to search archives:
>>site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>Best regards.
>Steve Read
>steveread@free.fr
>2008-11-10
>
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>Google command to search archives:
>site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>Google command to search archives:
>site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Best regards.
Steve Read
steveread@free.fr
2008-11-10
-
[permaculture] private property and forests,
Rain Tenaqiya, 11/08/2008
-
Re: [permaculture] private property and forests,
Steve Read, 11/10/2008
-
Re: [permaculture] private property and forests,
Dieter Brand, 11/10/2008
-
[permaculture] private property and forests,
Steve Read, 11/10/2008
-
Re: [permaculture] private property and forests,
christopher nesbitt, 11/10/2008
- [permaculture] French Permaculture pamphlet, Steve Read, 11/10/2008
-
[permaculture] private property and forests,
Steve Read, 11/10/2008
- Re: [permaculture] private property and forests, Bob Waldrop, 11/10/2008
- Re: [permaculture] private property and forests, Dieter Brand, 11/10/2008
-
Re: [permaculture] private property and forests,
christopher nesbitt, 11/10/2008
-
[permaculture] private property and forests,
Steve Read, 11/10/2008
-
Re: [permaculture] private property and forests,
Dieter Brand, 11/10/2008
- Re: [permaculture] private property and forests, christopher nesbitt, 11/10/2008
-
Re: [permaculture] private property and forests,
Steve Read, 11/10/2008
Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.