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  • From: "Steve Read" <steveread@free.fr>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [permaculture] private property and forests
  • Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:05:51 +0100

Hello, christopher nesbitt,

Oh well then I must apologise to one and all, I have failed to make my point
online and stepped on some toes, I'm not going to keep on repeating my
'thesis'. In terms of who I am, thats easy, following Stella's initiative I
and a few others have posted Bio's at the chaordic institute website.

Maybe in a few years time I shall be sufficiently evolved to be able to
express myself more clearly on this subject.

Why do you put Asses in holes?

SteveR

======= At 2008-11-10, 17:11:43 you wrote: =======

>I hate to get sucked into this, but your tone, Steve, since the issue
>of property has come up, has been combative, unpleasant, and superior.
>If you don't want to be seen as an asshole, maybe it would be best for
>you to be more careful with your tone. So far you have come off as
>bullying and condescending, but offered zero of substance. You seem to
>feel you have the right to dictate the parameters of this discussion,
>making the conversation smaller when you like, ignoring valid points,
>and opening it up to wide ranging topics when you think it suits you,
>while not bothering to read peoples posts clearly, assigning values to
>their statements the writers did not intend, then insinuating that
>anyone who doesn't agree with you on... and here I am still not sure
>what you are saying... is less evolved than you are.
>
>You make these statements about property ownership that are really
>besides the point or peripheral to the discussion, bold, sweeping,
>monolithic, monochromatic pronouncements about "universal ills", but
>most issues are not black and white, or universal, and are nuanced,
>and then insultingly quote people when they say that they are "out of
>touch with things" when they broaden the conversation. Private
>ownership, of land, is one of these issues with 1000 shades of grey,
>many of them very positive. As some one (wonderful) said to me, off
>list: you "make such broad generalizations and confuse the tool of
>property rights with the sometimes distorted use/abuse of that tool by
>some entities" that some people, myself included, are seriously
>curious about your relationship with land and what your design work
>has produced.
>
>In a discussion about the benefits of property rights, which had moved
>onto a discussion of the relationship to the land and property rights
>in Maya communities in southern Belize, you attempted to insert the
>evolving Chinese landlord class, which is fine, and certainly very,
>very interesting, but wasn't part of that conversation, has nothing to
>do with land tenure in Maya communities, and really added nothing to
>the discussion. You also commented on the subprime mortgage fall out,
>an interesting topic, but, again, not one that had anything to do with
>the conversation.
>
>I think Dieter is well within the parameters of this discussion, those
>parameters set by your wandering topics, to bring up the "brutalities"
>of the lack of property rights in the former Soviet Union as one
>actual, tangible, real example of what the lack of property rights can
>lead to, collectivist/statist ownership models, one way that lack of
>property rights can go. In response to your Chinese land lords
>comment, I also brought up the Great Leap Forward, and cannibalism,
>another historical outcome of the lack of property rights. A logical
>evolution of this conversation, responding to your comments, which is
>an offshoot of other conversations, is to point out some examples of
>the damage lack of property rights has caused, especially since you
>have yet to trot out some working examples of where the absence of
>private property has resulted in positive results, merely leaving
>blank spots on the page for others to insert examples of where the
>absence of private property has led to people owning......
>televisions. I am open minded, and would like to hear of these bright
>spots, so, please, feel free to show us them.
>
>It is true that Dieter, and everyone else here, has no idea what you
>are doing, because you haven't shared that, merely (it appears to me)
>suggesting that other people here are not as enlightened as you are
>regarding land ownership. I, for one, am interested in what you're
>doing, because I am interested in where your world view is coming from
>(and what your view actually is). I find reading about peoples farming
>is much more interesting than watching petulant displays of
>contrariness and reactionary platitudes about "universal" "problems"
>the author is not offering solutions to.
>
>Lastly, I think Dieter raises some excellent points, points you
>snittily choose to ignore when the polite thing to do would be to
>respond to them. I think your response to what could have been a
>conversation, was rude. Rather then copy and paste the whole email, I
>will say that I really thought all of it was good observation,
>especially the dissolution of the large estates through inheritance
>taxes, and that policies developed in urban areas are having lasting
>repercussions in rural Portugal. Thank you, Dieter, for sharing that.
>
>So I will ask again, what's your point, here? Thesis statement,
>please. In the absence of a thesis statement, Steve, remember this old
>adage: when in a hole, stop digging.
>
>
>
>
>On Nov 10, 2008, at 7:28 AM, Steve Read wrote:
>
>> Hello, Dieter Brand,
>>
>> "f you are serious about your ideas, I suggest you put hand to
>> shovel and try to make a living out of a piece of land"
>>
>> I would politely suggest that you be a lot more careful with your
>> tone, I would also suggest that you don't make unfounded assumptions
>> about what I do and where I come from, if you can't
>> be bothered either to backtrack a thread then I wouldn't bother if I
>> were you to make a contribution. The Soviet Union and its failures
>> and brutalities has nothing to do with this discusssion.
>>
>> You are completely correct I feel however when you say "I'm a little
>> out of touch with things".
>>
>> I'm off now to do some planting and to check on the area of
>> buckwheat that seems to need some help.
>>
>> SteveR
>>
>> ======= At 2008-11-10, 13:09:07 you wrote: =======
>>
>>>> ...The point I would like for a final time to re-iterate is that
>>>> private property gives the owner(s) the right (constrained
>>>> only by variable Govt and local laws) to do with it as they
>>>> like, in perpetuity and their children etc etc.
>>>>
>>>> Over and out
>>>
>>> SteveR,
>>>
>>> Nothing is really over and out until it is really over and out.
>>> Regarding the "perpetuity" of landownership in the UK, isn't there
>>> also the little detail of inheritance tax that has effectively
>>> dissolved many of the old estates?
>>>
>>> I haven't been able to follow this thread from the beginning, but
>>> I'm generally of the opinion that sustainable use of land requires
>>> private ownership or at least a system of tenure that enables a
>>> farmer to plan for the long term.
>>>
>>> Anyways, landowners are far from "free to do" with their land as
>>> they like, apart from the local and Gov. laws you mentioned, there
>>> are also economic factors and, in Europe, the EU agricultural
>>> policy that determine everything a farmer can and cannot do.
>>>
>>> Whatever evils of private ownership you can make out, surely that
>>> is nothing in comparison to the gigantic waste engendered by the
>>> collective ownership of the Soviet Union. I'm a little out of
>>> touch with things, but if the Hampstead Heath crowd is once again
>>> getting all befuddled with socialist revolution, there are still
>>> enough survivors of the Gulag of "real" socialism that are none to
>>> keen on repeating the experience.
>>>
>>> The trouble I see is that many of the laws governing the land are
>>> made in the cities, while the rural population has little say in
>>> the way things are done. Here in Portugal were I live; many
>>> farmers have given up due to economic conditions. To make things
>>> worse, new laws (most of which are due to EU regulations) are
>>> putting on the screws even further. The result is that farmers are
>>> still leaving the land. In this dry climate, the abandoned land
>>> like the protected areas created EU-wide “to protect nature” will
>>> burn down in regular intervals, thus devastating whole regions.
>>>
>>> Most farmers are unlikely to be enthusiastic about some day dream
>>> of collective ownership imposed on them by people from the cities.
>>> If you are serious about your ideas, I suggest you put hand to
>>> shovel and try to make a living out of a piece of land. You could
>>> even join some commune if you are able to stomach the internal
>>> political infighting these things often bring about.
>>>
>>> Dieter Brand
>>> Portugal
>>>
>>> --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Steve Read <steveread@free.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Steve Read <steveread@free.fr>
>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] private property and forests
>>> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 7:26 AM
>>>
>>> Hello, Rain Tenaqiya,
>>>
>>> All over Britain thousands of acres of land held by schools has
>>> been was sold
>>> off, particularly during the Thatcher regime as schools made a
>>> quick pound out
>>> of the booming housing development. That an analyst writes a book,
>>> that someone
>>> reads it, and its got an ISBN number doesn't necessarily make the
>>> proposals
>>> in it astute. Pension schemes can be as ill-judges in their
>>> practices as anyone
>>> else. The point I would like for a final time to re-iterate is that
>>> private
>>> property gives the owner(s) the right (constrained only by variable
>>> Govt and
>>> local laws) to do with it as they like, in perpetuity and their
>>> children etc
>>> etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> Over and out
>>>
>>>
>>> SteveR
>>>
>>> ======= At 2008-11-08, 20:26:26 you wrote: =======
>>>
>>>> I'm reading a book called More Tree Talk by Ray Raphael, a local
>>> (northern California) historian. He explains how property owned by
>>> logging
>>> corporations is logged at a faster than sustainable rate in order
>>> to produce a
>>> profit in a capitalist society with high interest rates and
>>> multiple investment
>>> options for capital. He proposes that a better solution would be
>>> to have
>>> forest land owned by schools, retirement funds, and other groups
>>> who have less
>>> pressure to make a quick profit, but who are interested in making
>>> money over a
>>> longer time period.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing is perfect, but using broad labels like "private
>>> property" isn't good for making sustainable designs. Again, we have
>>> to look at what our design goals are and do a needs and yields
>>> assessment for
>>> our different options. Getting really specific about the different
>>> elements
>>> and sites in our designs will help us come up with better results.
>>>>
>>>> Rain
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards.
>>> Steve Read
>>> steveread@free.fr
>>> 2008-11-10
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>>
>> Best regards.
>> Steve Read
>> steveread@free.fr
>> 2008-11-10
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>_____________________________
>Christopher Nesbitt
>
>Maya Mountain Research Farm
>San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
>PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
>BELIZE,
>Central America
>
>www.mmrfbz.org
>
>
>
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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Best regards.
Steve Read
steveread@free.fr
2008-11-10




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