Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - Re: [permaculture] private property and forests

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] private property and forests
  • Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:01:57 -0800 (PST)

Steve,
 
I'm sorry if my tone upset you.  From the tone of your own messages I was
under the impression that you weren't all that squeamish about tone, well, I
guess I was wrong.
 
I wasn't aware that I made any assumptions about you. "Real socialism" is
perhaps not the only example of government based on collective ownership, but
it is certainly the best known, the one that was implemented on the largest
scale and the one closest to us culturally, hence when you talk about the
evils of private ownership, what else do you want us to think?
 
Incidentally, I'm curious about your Buckwheat.  In Portugal it is too cold
to cultivate Buckwheat this time of the Year. I would have thought that in
the UK it would have been killed off by cold by now.
 
Dieter Brand,
Portugal

 
Mon, 11/10/08, Steve Read <steveread@free.fr> wrote:

From: Steve Read <steveread@free.fr>
Subject: [permaculture] private property and forests
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 1:28 PM

Hello, Dieter Brand,

"f you are serious about your ideas, I suggest you put hand to shovel and
try to make a living out of a piece of land"

I would politely suggest that you be a lot more careful with your tone, I
would
also suggest that you don't make unfounded assumptions about what I do and
where I come from, if you can't
be bothered either to backtrack a thread then I wouldn't bother if I were
you to make a contribution. The Soviet Union and its failures and brutalities
has nothing to do with this discusssion.

You are completely correct I feel however when you say "I'm a little
out of touch with things".

I'm off now to do some planting and to check on the area of buckwheat that
seems to need some help.

SteveR

======= At 2008-11-10, 13:09:07 you wrote: =======

>> ...The point I would like for a final time to re-iterate is that
>> private property gives the owner(s) the right (constrained
>> only by variable Govt and local laws) to do with it as they
>> like, in perpetuity and their children etc etc.
>>
>> Over and out
>
>SteveR,
> 
>Nothing is really over and out until it is really over and out.  Regarding
the "perpetuity" of landownership in the UK, isn't there also the
little detail of inheritance tax that has effectively dissolved many of the
old
estates?
> 
>I haven't been able to follow this thread from the beginning, but
I'm generally of the opinion that sustainable use of land requires private
ownership or at least a system of tenure that enables a farmer to plan for the
long term.
> 
>Anyways, landowners are far from "free to do" with their land as
they like, apart from the local and Gov. laws you mentioned, there are also
economic factors and, in Europe, the EU agricultural policy that determine
everything a farmer can and cannot do.
> 
>Whatever evils of private ownership you can make out, surely that is
nothing in comparison to the gigantic waste engendered by the collective
ownership of the Soviet Union.  I'm a little out of touch with things, but
if the Hampstead Heath crowd is once again getting all befuddled with
socialist
revolution, there are still enough survivors of the Gulag of "real"
socialism that are none to keen on repeating the experience.
> 
>The trouble I see is that many of the laws governing the land are made in
the cities, while the rural population has little say in the way things are
done.  Here in Portugal were I live; many farmers have given up due to
economic
conditions.  To make things worse, new laws (most of which are due to EU
regulations) are putting on the screws even further.  The result is that
farmers are still leaving the land.  In this dry climate, the abandoned land
like the protected areas created EU-wide “to protect nature” will burn down
in regular intervals, thus devastating whole regions.
> 
>Most farmers are unlikely to be enthusiastic about some day dream of
collective ownership imposed on them by people from the cities.  If you are
serious about your ideas, I suggest you put hand to shovel and try to make a
living out of a piece of land.  You could even join some commune if you are
able to stomach the internal political infighting these things often bring
about.
> 
>Dieter Brand
>Portugal
>
>--- On Mon, 11/10/08, Steve Read <steveread@free.fr> wrote:
>
>From: Steve Read <steveread@free.fr>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] private property and forests
>To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 7:26 AM
>
>Hello, Rain Tenaqiya,
>
>All over Britain thousands of acres of land held by schools has been was
sold
>off, particularly during the Thatcher regime as schools made a quick pound
out
>of the booming housing development. That an analyst writes a book, that
someone
>reads it, and its got an ISBN number doesn't necessarily make the
proposals
>in it astute. Pension schemes can be as ill-judges in their practices as
anyone
>else. The point I would like for a final time to re-iterate is that private
>property gives the owner(s) the right (constrained only by variable Govt
and
>local laws) to do with it as they like, in perpetuity and their children
etc
>etc.
>
>
>Over and out
>
>
>SteveR
>
>======= At 2008-11-08, 20:26:26 you wrote: =======
>
>>I'm reading a book called More Tree Talk by Ray Raphael, a local
>(northern California) historian.  He explains how property owned by
logging
>corporations is logged at a faster than sustainable rate in order to
produce a
>profit in a capitalist society with high interest rates and multiple
investment
>options for capital.  He proposes that a better solution would be to have
>forest land owned by schools, retirement funds, and other groups who have
less
>pressure to make a quick profit, but who are interested in making money
over a
>longer time period. 
>
>>Nothing is perfect, but using broad labels like "private
>property" isn't good for making sustainable designs.  Again, we
have
>to look at what our design goals are and do a needs and yields assessment
for
>our different options.  Getting really specific about the different
elements
>and sites in our designs will help us come up with better results.
>
>>Rain
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>permaculture mailing list
>>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>Google command to search archives:
>>site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>Best regards.
>Steve Read
>steveread@free.fr
>2008-11-10
>
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>Google command to search archives:
>site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>Google command to search archives:
>site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Best regards.
Steve Read
steveread@free.fr
2008-11-10

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring






>From lflj@intrex.net Mon Nov 10 23:45:13 2008
Return-Path: <lflj@intrex.net>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
id 475974C016; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:45:13 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled
version=3.2.3
Received: from fmailhost05.isp.att.net (fmailhost05.isp.att.net
[204.127.217.105])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6227D4C019
for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:45:12 -0500 (EST)
Received: from [192.168.2.102]
(adsl-065-005-197-216.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net[65.5.197.216])
by isp.att.net (frfwmhc05) with ESMTP
id <20081111044511H0500cd9t5e>; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:45:11 +0000
X-Originating-IP: [65.5.197.216]
Message-ID: <49190DD7.8060104@intrex.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:45:11 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@intrex.net>
Organization: Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] [Fwd: [SANET-MG] GREEN Build Conference and Expo -
Nov 19-21, 2008 - Boston, MA]
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:45:13 -0000



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [SANET-MG] GREEN Build Conference and Expo - Nov 19-21, 2008 -
Boston, MA
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:29:59 -0800
From: Carl DuPoldt <cdupoldt@YAHOO.COM>
Reply-To: cdupoldt@yahoo.com
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

Anyone interested in the GREEN Build Conference and Expo - Here's the web link
http://www.greenbuildexpo.org/







Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page