Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - Re: [permaculture] private property and forests

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] private property and forests
  • Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:09:01 -0800 (PST)

> ...The point I would like for a final time to re-iterate is that
> private property gives the owner(s) the right (constrained
> only by variable Govt and local laws) to do with it as they
> like, in perpetuity and their children etc etc.
>
> Over and out

SteveR,
 
Nothing is really over and out until it is really over and out.  Regarding
the "perpetuity" of landownership in the UK, isn't there also the little
detail of inheritance tax that has effectively dissolved many of the old
estates?
 
I haven't been able to follow this thread from the beginning, but I'm
generally of the opinion that sustainable use of land requires private
ownership or at least a system of tenure that enables a farmer to plan for
the long term.
 
Anyways, landowners are far from "free to do" with their land as they like,
apart from the local and Gov. laws you mentioned, there are also economic
factors and, in Europe, the EU agricultural policy that determine everything
a farmer can and cannot do.
 
Whatever evils of private ownership you can make out, surely that is nothing
in comparison to the gigantic waste engendered by the collective ownership of
the Soviet Union.  I'm a little out of touch with things, but if the
Hampstead Heath crowd is once again getting all befuddled with socialist
revolution, there are still enough survivors of the Gulag of "real" socialism
that are none to keen on repeating the experience.
 
The trouble I see is that many of the laws governing the land are made in the
cities, while the rural population has little say in the way things are done. 
Here in Portugal were I live; many farmers have given up due to economic
conditions.  To make things worse, new laws (most of which are due to EU
regulations) are putting on the screws even further.  The result is that
farmers are still leaving the land.  In this dry climate, the abandoned land
like the protected areas created EU-wide “to protect nature” will burn down
in regular intervals, thus devastating whole regions.
 
Most farmers are unlikely to be enthusiastic about some day dream of
collective ownership imposed on them by people from the cities.  If you are
serious about your ideas, I suggest you put hand to shovel and try to make a
living out of a piece of land.  You could even join some commune if you are
able to stomach the internal political infighting these things often bring
about.
 
Dieter Brand
Portugal

--- On Mon, 11/10/08, Steve Read <steveread@free.fr> wrote:

From: Steve Read <steveread@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] private property and forests
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 7:26 AM

Hello, Rain Tenaqiya,

All over Britain thousands of acres of land held by schools has been was sold
off, particularly during the Thatcher regime as schools made a quick pound out
of the booming housing development. That an analyst writes a book, that
someone
reads it, and its got an ISBN number doesn't necessarily make the proposals
in it astute. Pension schemes can be as ill-judges in their practices as
anyone
else. The point I would like for a final time to re-iterate is that private
property gives the owner(s) the right (constrained only by variable Govt and
local laws) to do with it as they like, in perpetuity and their children etc
etc.


Over and out


SteveR

======= At 2008-11-08, 20:26:26 you wrote: =======

>I'm reading a book called More Tree Talk by Ray Raphael, a local
(northern California) historian.  He explains how property owned by logging
corporations is logged at a faster than sustainable rate in order to produce a
profit in a capitalist society with high interest rates and multiple
investment
options for capital.  He proposes that a better solution would be to have
forest land owned by schools, retirement funds, and other groups who have less
pressure to make a quick profit, but who are interested in making money over a
longer time period. 
> 
>Nothing is perfect, but using broad labels like "private
property" isn't good for making sustainable designs.  Again, we have
to look at what our design goals are and do a needs and yields assessment for
our different options.  Getting really specific about the different elements
and sites in our designs will help us come up with better results.
> 
>Rain
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>Google command to search archives:
>site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Best regards.
Steve Read
steveread@free.fr
2008-11-10

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring






>From lflj@intrex.net Mon Nov 10 07:33:11 2008
Return-Path: <lflj@intrex.net>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
id 5AF404C014; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:33:11 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled
version=3.2.3
Received: from fmailhost02.isp.att.net (fmailhost02.isp.att.net
[204.127.217.102])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C539E4C011
for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:33:10 -0500 (EST)
Received: from [192.168.2.100]
(adsl-065-005-197-216.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net[65.5.197.216])
by isp.att.net (frfwmhc02) with ESMTP
id <20081110123309H02001futfe>; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:33:10 +0000
X-Originating-IP: [65.5.197.216]
Message-ID: <49182A03.9070307@intrex.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:33:07 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@intrex.net>
Organization: Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US;
rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] Incident reviited: Chinese government abuse of
Tibetans
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:33:11 -0000


Yet another Xpost about the ongoing abuse of Tibetans by the Chinese
government
==============================================================================
This World preview: Murder in the Snow
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/7715109.stm
Page last updated at 14:46 GMT, Friday, 7 November 2008
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/7715109.stm
In September 2006 a group of climbers in the Himalayas witnessed and filmed
the shooting of Tibetan refugees as they
attempted to flee over the mountains into Nepal.
This World preview: Murder in the Snow
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/7715109.stm




Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page