permaculture

[Jody Troupe <jodyt2@mac.com>]

Hello all -

I want to jump back in here, but unfortunately our internet has been  
down since yesterday. I'm writing a brief blurb while sitting in a  
coffee shop.

First, I wanted to say I am not supporting all distilled water. Our  
protocol uses specifically steam-distilled (or sun distilled, I  
wouldn't split hairs on that). I don't know how other types of  
distillation are done, I just know that we are very specific about the  
water used in our methods and it is steam-distilled.

I've read the WHO paper and would need more time to comment. But, one  
thing that jumped at me right away as a warning flag was the point (pg  
3) that listed adding fluoride as being beneficial to a population  
since they found it reduced dental caries.

What they completely did not point out, that is a well-known fact in  
scientific & medical circles (particularly those concerned with bone  
mass because I worked for a company that made bone densitometers for 8  
years. I learned this fact in the 90's) is that communities that have  
fluoridated water have MUCH higher bone fracture rates than those that  
use any other kind of water. The fluoride in water is a scam, and a  
really big one at that. I can't elaborate here, but if anyone starts  
digging in alternative health information, you'll find a lot of  
negatives to fluoride in the water.

Secondly, in terms of infrastructure, the WHO paper points out that  
distilled water could not be carried through pipes due to its more  
aggressive nature as it would break down the very system carrying it  
to homes. I don't doubt this is true, and is one reason a large  
organization like WHO is going to look for reasons why distilled water  
would be an inappropriate option for trying to 'have control' over the  
water supply. (if you see 'conspiracy' in that, it is meant to be  
there.)

The science that I practice does actually work, and uses steam- 
distilled water BUT also incorporates taking mineral supplement  
(because our foods are so deficient). I cannot say one way or the  
other if drinking distilled water by itself would draw minerals out of  
the body. I do think the WHO paper is partial and it would be worth  
doing your own digging to get to some genuinely independent studies.  
(good luck).

I already went around this discussion with my instructor in the past  
and I am still convinced distilled water is perfectly fine. Having  
worked for a  very large company that developed health-related  
products AND had a pharmaceutical spin-off, AND their own "3rd party"  
review company (that was to 'independently' review the pharmaceutical  
studies) I have seen how this stuff works first hand. Since the WHO  
was citing their own 1980 paper on conclusions about water, I would  
have to dismiss those references outright. WHO is too big and I won't  
trust their ultimate allegiance. Then, why they went on to mainly cite  
Russian and Czech studies but I wondered why there weren't more US- 
based studies.

The argument about getting calcium from the water, or other nutrients  
may be a fair comment, but it pisses me off because we should get SO  
MUCH MORE nutrition if farming were actually done RIGHT. People should  
get the bulk of their nutrition through the phosphated mineral  
complexes our foods are supposed to supply to us (because they got it  
from the soil!).

I am not against other waters: glacial, fresh, whatever, as long as  
they're clean.


Jody


On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:35 AM, sinergyinaction@netscape.net wrote:

> Hi Bruce
>
>
> thanks for your view on this thread.
>
> I am just thinking that distilled water is now being sold (at least  
> here in Spain) as one of the solutions (along with reverse osmosis)  
> one can buy in the cities in order to have clean potable water.
> Do these distilling devices usually have some equipment within them  
> that change the composition of the distilled water in order to make  
> it safe? Since otherwise I do not understand how can they have  
> permission to market them, especially? after having documents like  
> the WHO's, that Steve Read sent earlier, suggesting this kind of  
> water not to be safe in the long run.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers
> Antonio
>
>
> (BTW I think we briefly met each other during APC8 in 2005 down in  
> Melbourne, you were in the organizing committee, weren't you?)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Zell <bruce@permaculturenq.com.au>
> To: 'permaculture' <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 11:42 am
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] distilled water
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello All
>
> Distilled water might be OK for a while if you were doing a detox or
> something but in the long run I don't think its worth the risk.  
> There are a
> lot of very subtle tasks that water plays in our bodies in its whole  
> state
> and it could be very difficult to detect if minerals etc were being  
> leached
> and causing problems. We did some fairly extensive research here in  
> tropical
> north Queensland Australia some 25 years ago and we are still drinking
> spring water from a mountain side but do plan to put that through a  
> filter
> in future. I would go with No 1 below from Toby on this thread
>
>
>
> 1)    one is (Toby's, WHO's) the scientific sort of take, saying  
> (according
> to some studies and deduction from nature) that animals and plants  
> don't
> usually "drink" distilled water and that distilled water can  
> actually drag?
> minerals and other important substances out of? organisms' bodies,  
> thus
> depleting them of those vital substances and making them sick in the  
> long
> rung if consumed regularly
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Bruce
>
> Zell & Assoc
>
> Permaculture Services North Queensland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> sinergyinaction@netscape.net
> Sent: Thursday, 25 September 2008 6:20 PM
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] distilled water
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> interesting discussion here.
>
>
>
> So Iit seems to me that? there are a couple of different takes on  
> the topic
>
>
>
> 1) one is (Toby's, WHO's) the scientific sort of take, saying  
> (according to
> some studies and deduction from nature) that animals and plants don't
> usually "drink" distilled water and that distilled water can  
> actually drag?
> minerals and other important substances out of? organisms' bodies,  
> thus
> depleting them of those vital substances and making them sick in the  
> long
> rung if consumed regularly
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2) On the other hand there seem to be another trend based on people  
> own
> experiences, drinking either evaporated water or even distilled water,
> declaring of having done that for years and still being alive and  
> kicking,
> not depleted at all. Even Jody declares that from a scientific point  
> of view
> (I gather):
>
>
>
> [Jody's quote] "I have heard many times that drinking distilled  
> water can be
> harmful
>
> BUT I come from a different perspective. I actually study body
>
> chemistry (includes body pH, but also measures other factors of the
>
> urine & saliva) and our protocol includes exclusively using distilled
>
> water. It is considered higher energy water in terms of bringing
>
> nutrients into the cell. Other waters aren't necessarily bad, but they
>
> have less ability to transport nutrients that are needed because the
>
> molecules are already carrying minerals (not necessarily the ones that
>
> particular body needs to bring in.)
>
>
>
> This protocol has been used for decades extremely successfully and
>
> people on it do not experience hair loss, or degenerative diseases
>
> that are often attributed to distilled water in some other articles
>
> I've read. The articles I've seen have not been based on scientific
>
> findings but are conclusions the author came to based on disparate  
> data."
>
> [end of Jody's quote]
>
>
>
> quite a few people drinking distilled water seem to have benefitted  
> from it
> without
>
> apparently experiencing mayor health problems, accordingto Jody's
> experience, which he declares
>
> having some more solid scientific grounds (I am not a scientst by  
> the way!)
>
> SALS3's experience with distilled/evaporated water seems also  
> relevant to
> me.
>
> What I find interesting in his view is when he mentions that he (we)
> actually obtain most of
>
> our nutrients from the food we eat, so we should be able to  
> compensate their
> deficiency in
>
> water. But according to the WHO's paper, some experiments have shown  
> that
> even when animals have
>
> been given approriate food while drinking demineralized water, they  
> have
> presented mineral
>
> losses.....
>
> So are these two views contradictory? If not how could they be
> reconciliated?
>
> And what about the scientifc position expressed in the WHO paper and  
> the
> also scientific stance
>
> expressed by Jody?
>
> Is there something WHO scientists have missed out?
>
> All the best
>
> Antonio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
>
> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
>
>
>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>
>
>
> Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 1:52 am
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] distilled water
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rain water and ice are full of dissolved minerals, organic compounds,
>
>
>
> dust, pollen, debris, etc., etc. (see the Designer's Manual on this).
>
>
>
> They are not pure water, and a far. far cry from distilled. About the
>
>
>
> only occurrence of distilled water in nature is just as water  
> evaporates
>
>
>
> from bodies of water and, occasionally, from plants, although most
>
>
>
> evapo-transpired water has solutes in it. Within moments, "distilled"
>
>
>
> evaporating water picks up all kinds of stuff from its environment.
>
>
>
> Ain't no pure in nature.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't like city water either. And I agree that stainless and glass
>
>
>
> (and maybe fired clay of the right type) are the best vessels for  
> water.
>
>
>
> I lived with rainwater catchment for ten years and loved it. But
>
>
>
> rainwater is a thick soup compared to distilled.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Toby
>
>
>
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SALS3 wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > the fact that it attracts minerals it don't attract it fills the  
> > empty
> water
>
>
>
> > with pipe and plastic and tells me only use glass for my pure water  
> > and
>
>
>
> > stainless steal and should show you the above statement that pure  
> > water to
>
>
>
>
> > me increases water ability to take away wastes.  not pipe because  
> > what I
> do
>
>
>
> > is clean the pipe lead out . that's why when you buy water in plastic
>
>
>
> > containers it taste like plastic because the water is pure not  
> > because it
>
>
>
> > attracts plastic please.  it takes up stuff easy like nutrients and
> wastes.
>
>
>
> > oh you need to taste the tea it makes.  IMHO rain water you say is  
> > pure I
>
>
>
> > guess that's not nature.  ice pure also not nature.  hehe  give me  
> > a brake
> .
>
>
>
> > I get my minerals from what I eat and drink not from the water and  
> > you are
>
>
>
>
> > right so what.  I don't need all the stuff that's in water now days  
> > just
> to
>
>
>
> > get the little good.  .  are you kidding.   anyway to each his  
> > own.. to me
>
>
>
>
> > water water every where not a drop fit to drink. but mine  lets  
> > talk about
>
>
>
>
> > all the bad in water .  and most of it is bad.  I get letters from  
> > the
> water
>
>
>
> > company all the time telling me that water I drank last month  
> > tested bad.
>
>
>
> > how do you undrink last months water after the fact.  I have more  
> > doubts
>
>
>
> > about what folks call water than pure water.  some folks take the  
> > water
> out
>
>
>
> > of rivers where you can't even see your own hand.  they fix it up  
> > make it
>
>
>
> > taste like water and give the people that.  I have to try and take  
> > all the
>
>
>
>
> > stuff they put in out and clean it up and out comes water.  h2o and  
> > pure
>
>
>
> > water has no taste.  if you make it using only the sun and what a  
> > natural
>
>
>
> > thing that is . Natures own water.  where the sun draws the water  
> > up .
> that
>
>
>
> > is what rain is and I feel this is even cleaner than rain because  
> > rain has
>
>
>
>
> > to pass through the air that man has also messed up.  ever hear of  
> > acid
>
>
>
> > rain.  this water does not attract pipe like a magnet it fills the  
> > empty
>
>
>
> > space in pure water and the city is so full of junk it can pass  
> > through
> the
>
>
>
> > pipes and not pick as much up . same as when u drink that water its  
> > so
> full
>
>
>
> > of stuff it don't pick up and clean you aND instead of cleaning and  
> > taking
>
>
>
>
> > out waste it leaves you something , fluoride, clorain, lead etc.   
> > IMHO
> give
>
>
>
> > me clean water anyday.  to each his own.  i don't like to take a  
> > bath in
>
>
>
> > city water let alone drink it.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > > aggressively attracts minerals (it sure sucks them out of pipes and
>
>
>
> > > such) and is thought to deplete the body of minerals if used
>
>
>
> > > extensively. Steve Read's post cites some of the evidence.
>
>
>
> > >
>
>
>
> > > There's nothing in nature to suggest that distilled water is good  
> > > for
>
>
>
> > > animals to drink. Plants and animals live on non-distilled water  
> > > (and
>
>
>
> > > the biodynamics folks consider distilled water to be dead and thus
>
>
>
> > > harmful to life) so I wouldn't experiment on myself.
>
>
>
> > >
>
>
>
> > > Toby
>
>
>
> > > http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
> > >
>
>
>
> > > _______________________________________________
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