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  • From: Robyn Francis <erda@nor.com.au>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ferrocement water tank pix
  • Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:54:33 +1100

Hi Stella
Another idea altogether...
Something I've seen used successfully for water storage is recycled pickle,
olive and caper barrels, especially the 80-100litre plastic ones. A permie
friend south of Sydney has around 20 of these set up for water storage as a
raised 1.2m high long narrow curvaceous garden bed. The lids protrude above
the soil & mulch (adorned by ceramic plant pots and funky garden
sculptures). The barrels are all connected with 50mm pipes about 10cm from
the base so the water simply flows from one to the next. Thought if you've
plenty of rock available you could build up the rock wall either side of the
barrels (my friend used colourbond roofing iron for the garden bed walls).


The main issue with long thin ferrous cement structures is they really need
to be built exceptionally strong as the weight of the water isn't equally
distributed against the walls as in a round tank structure - you could end
up with an expensive leaky structure that doesn't work.

Ciao
Robyn


On 17/12/07 12:32 AM, "Stella" <stella@finca-luna.com> wrote:

> has anyone seen or tried ferrocement walls/tanks, as a multifunctioning
> idea?
>
> i´ve never built a ferrocement tank, but fell in love with them in
> Brasil after seeing so many for the first time this year. Of all
> different sizes and shapes, and heard of very few problems with them
> (although of course this could be local bias..)
>
> have been wondering if it would be possible to somehow combine two big
> jobs we have to do on our new finca: re-build & repair some big and
> small terrace walls, and build as much water storage capacity as
> possible. It would be very handy as the positions of the walls are
> perfect for both water capture and usage, and we'd like to avoid using
> much land for making tanks as all of it is good for growing, and we
> don´t have a lot...
>
> the embrionic idea (so far... if nobody tells us it´s just completely
> crazy) is to build 'walls' as 1m thick tanks of ferrocement which could
> be as high as 2 or 3 m, dug into the earth about 1 to 1.5m, and as long
> as drainage allows (either many small 'tanks' with gaps in between for
> drainage, joint for support to one another, or install drainage tubes
> across the back and front walls).
> it´s all totally at the initial idea stage, would love some advice from
> experienced folk.
> no idea if it's been done but seems a logical thing to try, unless
> there are some contra-indications with the material of course.
>
> here terrace walls are traditionally of stone (about 50-70cm thick, big
> stones with small 'fillings') and drainage is provided by the natural
> gaps in the material (cement is only used in some 'modern' versions).
> And most of our walls are curves (we have crecent-shaped terraces), so
> that would help, am guessing.
>
> in Brasil we were told on various occasions how suprisingly strong
> these tanks are, even outside 'reccomended' sizes and shapes (normally
> given in books and literature).
>
> what am wondering about, is ..
>
> 1) if anyone has tried this / has similar practical experiences that
> might help (not having anyone here with a 'feel' for the material but
> yes some fairly good basic notions of pressures, etc, this is a
> semi-blind guess)
>
> 2) the life expectancy of cement .. I suspect these tanks arent' 'for
> life' as we were told ... but just how old are the oldest one we know
> about? anyone tried it with lime? (cal)
>
> 3) how the ferrocement would be affected by constant contact with earth
> on one side, water on the inside and just air on the other side
> (long-term)
>
>
> thanks for all the sites you have sent! will go study them with time ..
>
>
>
> El 15/12/2007, a las 7:02, Keith Johnson escribió:
>
>> The steel rebar and expanded metal lath give it strength and the mortar
>> gives it rigidity. The two combined make it VERY strong. Very large
>> (130
>> f) ocean-going boats <http://www.ferrocement.org/> are made with this
>> technique (the Brits built a 120 foot submarine) and their walls are
>> not
>> much thicker. Many homes are built with it.
>>
>> This is my fifth tank and my second 10,000 gallon one. We intend to add
>> onto the tank a ferrocement room that wraps around a third of the tank
>> and will serve as a root cellar, storm shelter and spring house
>> (utilizing the overflow). The tank will be bermed about 3 feet high
>> around the rest of the circumference. Freezing has not damaged our
>> tanks, though the coldest climates would require more extensive berming
>> or partial burying.
>>
>> The cylindrical shape itself is a principal source of strength as the
>> outward pressure is equalized over the entire surface. The overall
>> thickness is one to one and a half inches. The walls are not thicker at
>> the bottom of the wall than the top of the wall. The roof is the same
>> thickness. When empty, it rings like a bell when you whack it with a
>> rubber mallet. If you sing in it, it echoes nicely. A really lovely and
>> versatile material and well worth the embedded energy.
>>
>> http://ferrocement.com/Page_1/english.html
>>
>> http://www.ferrocement.net/
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocement
>>
>> http://www.thefarm.org/charities/i4at/surv/ferro.htm
>>
>> http://www.green-trust.org/2003/ferrocement/default.htm
>>
>> http://www.eugenesargent.com/bench1.htm
>>
>> The stone gutter you refer to WAS essential to direct a large flow of
>> water into a sinuous garden path that provided many infiltration points
>> to prevent erosion in a very erodable landscape.
>>
>> Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
>>> Keith Johnson wrote
>>>> Peter and I recently finished laying pipe to plumb our water tank and
>>>> have started to install the roof catchment parts of the system.
>>>> You can look at pix of the project at
>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/KeithDJPcA/FerrocementTankPix02
>>>>
>>> Nice work. What design factors are required to give it enough
>>> vertical and circumferential structural rigidity to keep
>>> it from bursting from hydrostatic pressure and is the concrete
>>> thicker at the base that near the top?
>>>
>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/viewPhoto?
>>> uname=KeithDJPcA&aid=5141688084664055841&iid=5141688179153336402
>>> The stone gutter in this pic is just like downtown. I used to build
>>> some of these for landscape customers.
>>> If you have a lot of flow this feature is essential.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Keith Johnson
>> "Be fruitful and mulch apply."
>> Permaculture Activist Magazine
>> PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47407
>> (812) 335-0383
>> http://www.permacultureactivist.net
>> http://www.PermacultureTradingPost.com
>> Switch to Solar Power the Easy Way
>> http://www.jointhesolution.com/KeithJ-SunPower
>> http://www.PowUr.com/KeithJ-SunPower
>> Blog: http://kjpermaculture.blogspot.com/
>> also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
>> http://www.permacultureactivist.net/design/Designconsult.html
>> also Association for Regenerative Culture
>> http://www.ARCulture.org
>> also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy)
>> It's a small world after oil.
>> http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington
>> also Bloomington Permaculture Guild
>>
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