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  • From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc.
  • Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:06:27 -0700 (PDT)

Lisa,

Jamie´s "deliberately inflammatory" remarks weren´t about crabgrass,
he just had to have another stab at me. Something I said 2 years ago
on another list must have touched a raw nerve with him.

I agree that it is best to dig out crabgrass from the vegetable beds before
it spreads. Best to use a spading fork and not a spade so as not to cut
any of the rhizomes which will multiply the grass. It is OK to cover the
affected areas with mulch, the crabgrass will come through easy enough.
In fact the mulch will keep the soil soft, which will allow you to pull a
whole bundle of rhizomes out of the ground in one piece.

As to combatting crabgrass, etc. on a larger scale the methods proposed
so far are:

- applying lime
- spreading half decayed wooden mulch
- growing rye or ryegrass
- spreading plastic sheeting
(or 90% netting which transpires water and air)
- sowing plantain (to be confirmed)

But as I said in my first post, a strategy for leaving the crabgrass in
place while cultivating another crop would be best. Yet in places
with dry summers where crabgrass easily outgrows any other known
plant during the summer this seems difficult to achieve, unless one
is prepared to spend 10 or 20 years for soil improvement. But then
time passes quicker than one thinks, I´m already in my 12th year
on this land.

Dieter Brand
Portugal

Lisa Rollens <rollens@fidnet.com> wrote: Jamie,

Your reply is not inflammatory, it was right on the money and we needed to
be reminded. I have been listening intently to this discussion about
Bermuda grass hoping for a solution to get rid of mine. Most of my "design
area", my yard, is covered with Bermuda grass, and having lived in the south
USA for 20 years, I know that gardening with Bermuda grass is frustrating,
to say the least, a waste of time, to say more. I tried every different
method known to woman to get rid of the Bermuda, and the only thing that
works for me is to dig up the roots. then, when the pieces you don't get
the first time come up, you must be diligent about digging them up as soon
as they appear. I leave the soil unmulched for a while so I can see the
shoots. I have tried mulching them out with everything, and nothing kills
the rhizomes. They just keep going until they find light on the other side
of the mulch.

In Edible Forest Gardens, Jacke talks about modifying the site and
minimizing unwanted plants from the start. That would certainly refer to
Bermuda grass. The idea is that with patience at the beginning, the end
result could be greater productivity, and certainly less work, in the long
run.

I have crab grass here and there but it is nothing compared to Bermuda
grass. I really do feel that growing areas need to be free of Bermuda for
the most productivity, and least work.

If anyone else has any solutions to the Bermuda grass problem, please speak
up!

Lisa, in the Ozarks, USA


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jamie Nicol"
To: "permaculture"

Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 4:34 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc.


> Warning: This answer is deliberately inflammatory!
>
> Dear Dieter, why does nature offer you so many problems?
>
> There is no single technique to destroy a single plant because no plant
> grows alone - it is the result of a relational context of which we can
> only
> have the dimmest of notions.
>
> Crab grass is the result of cleared vegetation (perhaps due to your
> efforts
> to clear your land for fear of wildfire?). Broadscale, bare field
> agriculture (whether no-till or not) is the necessary condition for
> desertification in droughty areas (Savory's 'brittle landscapes'). Crab
> grass (and the madrinho you have cut down) is simply the momentary,
> natural
> progression toward revegetation.
>
> Crab grass is just the result of human action.
>
> Cease swimming against the flow of revegetation. Learn how to move with
> the
> flow, subtly effecting the changes toward your desired landscape. Allow
> everything to grow and continue to expand the possible plant diversity by
> continuing to cast seeds and seedballs.
>
> Food does not grow from out of a growing medium but from soil and soil
> does
> not exist where there is not a diverse array of plants filling every
> niche.
> You know this, we all know this! So why do we continue to focus
> exclusively
> upon a 'weed' or a particular crop...
>
> List of seeds to cast: ground cover - luzerne (alfalfa), black medic,
> white
> clover and never remove native leguminous plants; vegetables - all kinds
> of
> beets and radishes, asparagus, miner's lettuce, parsley, white mustard,
> chicory, coriander (cilantro), borage, cardoon, artichoke, Jerusalem
> artichoke (sunchoke), calendula, sunflowers, rocket (rucola), phacelia,
> tomato, aubergine, lentils, chick peas, peas, soya, cereals - maize,
> millet,
> amaranth, tef, wheat, barley, wild oats (always reliable!), trees - black
> and silver wattle (Acacia spp), apricot, peach, nectarine, pomegranate,
> jujube, pistacchio, almond, black locust, honey locust, carob, wild
> cherry,
> feijoa, fig, loquat, black mulberry, persimmon, tagasaste, holm and cork
> oak.
>
> If you do not have the time to move with the flow of nature then you can
> plough, spray, smother...conventional and organic farming do get their
> returns and so will you, unfortunately this includes desertification.
>
> Rain does not fall from the sky but grows up from the ground.
>
> Jamie
> Souscayrous
>
> PS Read Meister Eckhart on 'gelassenheit': leben ohne warum.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/18/07, Dieter Brand wrote:
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> Plantain will grow pretty much anywhere. If anything, my fields with
>> crabgrass have worse drainage than other places.
>>
>> Regarding the rye, I have bad news. The crabgrass already shows
>> through the patches where I had rye in the winter. The rye does of
>> course display allelophatic properties towards weeds; however, the
>> allelophatic function weakens after you cut the rye, even if you leave
>> the straw as mulch. This makes the rye option useless for me since
>> I don't have enough humidity to grow rye in the summer.
>>
>> I will try seeding the plantain into the crabgrass invested fields.
>>
>> Dieter Brand
>> Portugal
>>
>> Paul Cereghino
wrote: I associate plantain
>> with poor winter drainage. Perhaps that is what the
>> crabgrass can't take. I recall from unknown sources that winter rye is
>> allelopathic, and so makes a good smother crop -- so confirmation
>> through hearsay.
>> Paul Cereghino
>>
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>>
>>
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